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Author Topic: Question about Manchester and NH gun laws  (Read 6724 times)

rankeen

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Re: Question about Manchester and NH gun laws
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2005, 10:12:44 pm »

One last quick question. Do the feds monitor how many and what type of guns you buy? I've heard stories from people that say they do this so when they come to confiscate guns they will know exactly how many and what type of guns one has.

Assuming we're talking about ordinary firearms, and not Class III items (machine guns, short-barrelled shotguns or rifles, silencers, or AOWs ("Any Other Weapon", like pen guns, cane guns, etc.)), the only time the feds know anything about what you've purchased is if you buy two or more handguns within a five day period from the same dealer. If you do, the dealer must prepare Form 3310.4 and send it to the ATF. This lists the seller, buyer, make/model/caliber/type, and serial number:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f33104.pdf

Otherwise, the only way for the ATF to know what you have bought from a dealer is to visit every dealer you could possibly have bought from, and look through the dealer's 4473 files and "bound book" (Acquisition and Disposition log). Those forms stay with the dealer; the ATF can't remove them from the dealer's premises. They can make copies, but the dealer isn't obligated to provide the paper, copier, office space, or electricity.

They have no way of knowing what you've bought or sold in private, non-dealer transactions.

You've probably seen the TV cop dramas where police get a report from the ATF about where a gun was sold, and to whom, and where it went from there. Unless you live in a state with registration (which is only a handful), there is no such thing; records traces are long and tedious processes involving sorting through paper forms page by page. Even then, the trace stops at the last person to buy from an FFL, and will not show any subsequent private sales.

Kevin


Wow!! You sure know your stuff, sir. Another awesome post! Do you belong to any gun group, because whatever you belong to, I want to join it!! :) There's so much to learn out there...

THANK YOU KEVIN!! :)  :)  :)
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KBCraig

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Re: Question about Manchester and NH gun laws
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2005, 01:56:14 am »

Wow!! You sure know your stuff, sir. Another awesome post! Do you belong to any gun group, because whatever you belong to, I want to join it!! :) There's so much to learn out there...

THANK YOU KEVIN!! :)  :)  :)

I'm glad to help. I don't have any special knowledge; I've just been a beneficiary of the collective knowledge of some very experienced fellow collectors.

I have what is called a "Type 03" Federal Firearms License, aka a "Collector of Curios and Relics", aka C&R FFL, or CRFFL, which lends the nickname "cruffler" by which we are known.

When the Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed, it was the first time that dealers had to be federally licensed, and was also the first limitation on buying firearms interstate or mail order, or shipping firearms by mail or common carrier. Several types of FFL were created. Type 01 is a dealer. There are other types that deal with importers, manufacturers, explosives handlers, etc. GCA '68 recognized that there are collectors who aren't likely to be criminally-minded, but can't pursue their hobby without buying from out-of-state sources.

Anyhoo, the C&R FFL was created. The license is $30 for three years, and allows licensees to buy and sell C&R firearms interstate (both long guns and handguns), for the purpose of enhancing their collections.. Crufflers are specifically forbidden from dealing in firearms, which is defined as "engaging in the buying and selling of firearms with an aim to make a living" (roughly).

To be classified as a C&R, a firearm must be 50+ years old, or certified as being of particular interest by the curator of a state or local museum, or on a particular list (of hundreds of models) that is maintained by the ATF. The list can be very generic ("any bolt-action military rifle manufactured prior to 1949"), or very specific ("Winchester commerative Model 1894, Serial Number xxx....."). They do add to it regularly based on requests by collectors, but they never remove anything. That's why "any bolt-action military rifle manufactured prior to 1949" is still on the list, even though all such rifles qualify by being over 50 years old. When the law was enacted, such rifles were barely 20 years old.

Upon getting any FFL, including a C&R FFL, a licensee gets a healthy stack of publications that cover federal and state laws about firearms. Updates and "open letters to all licensees" come regularly. It's all interesting reading to anyone who has an interest in the law (especially those who believe such laws shouldn't exist!)

Kevin
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rankeen

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Re: Question about Manchester and NH gun laws
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2005, 09:14:04 am »

Wow!! You sure know your stuff, sir. Another awesome post! Do you belong to any gun group, because whatever you belong to, I want to join it!! :) There's so much to learn out there...

THANK YOU KEVIN!! :)  :)  :)

I'm glad to help. I don't have any special knowledge; I've just been a beneficiary of the collective knowledge of some very experienced fellow collectors.

I have what is called a "Type 03" Federal Firearms License, aka a "Collector of Curios and Relics", aka C&R FFL, or CRFFL, which lends the nickname "cruffler" by which we are known.

When the Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed, it was the first time that dealers had to be federally licensed, and was also the first limitation on buying firearms interstate or mail order, or shipping firearms by mail or common carrier. Several types of FFL were created. Type 01 is a dealer. There are other types that deal with importers, manufacturers, explosives handlers, etc. GCA '68 recognized that there are collectors who aren't likely to be criminally-minded, but can't pursue their hobby without buying from out-of-state sources.

Anyhoo, the C&R FFL was created. The license is $30 for three years, and allows licensees to buy and sell C&R firearms interstate (both long guns and handguns), for the purpose of enhancing their collections.. Crufflers are specifically forbidden from dealing in firearms, which is defined as "engaging in the buying and selling of firearms with an aim to make a living" (roughly).

To be classified as a C&R, a firearm must be 50+ years old, or certified as being of particular interest by the curator of a state or local museum, or on a particular list (of hundreds of models) that is maintained by the ATF. The list can be very generic ("any bolt-action military rifle manufactured prior to 1949"), or very specific ("Winchester commerative Model 1894, Serial Number xxx....."). They do add to it regularly based on requests by collectors, but they never remove anything. That's why "any bolt-action military rifle manufactured prior to 1949" is still on the list, even though all such rifles qualify by being over 50 years old. When the law was enacted, such rifles were barely 20 years old.

Upon getting any FFL, including a C&R FFL, a licensee gets a healthy stack of publications that cover federal and state laws about firearms. Updates and "open letters to all licensees" come regularly. It's all interesting reading to anyone who has an interest in the law (especially those who believe such laws shouldn't exist!)

Kevin


Kevin, I totally agree with you about these laws existing, it's just incrementalism to gun confiscation, IMHO…

By the way, since I’m new to guns, can you suggest a good book for novices like me? I don’t know the difference between calibers and a revolver, so I need a book that starts slow. I love to read, so feel free to recommend multiple books.

Once again, my sincerest gratitude! Thank you Kevin!!! :) :) :)
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Tracy Saboe

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Re: Question about Manchester and NH gun laws
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2005, 12:46:24 am »

Thanks KEvin,

That was very informative for me as well :)

Tracy
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KBCraig

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Re: Question about Manchester and NH gun laws
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2005, 12:22:30 pm »

As for what to read, I have to admit that I don't have any experience there. I have read plenty of books on firearms, but it was mostly arcania about accurizing rifles, or loading your own ammunition, or obscure points about differences that are only of interest to collectors.

I grew up shooting for recreation. My father was a marksmanship instructor in the Army, so I had good guidance. And I've passed along safety instruction to my children in the same way.

When I searched Amazon for "shooting for beginners", I found a couple that look promising:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873490290/qid=1111424492/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-0614719-4907132?v=glance&s=books

And:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0595088732/qid=1111424492/sr=1-10/ref=sr_1_10/104-0614719-4907132?v=glance&s=books

My best advice is to inquire at a gun club, tell them you're a novice and interested in learning about firearms and how to shoot safely. You can also take a course at a commercial range, preferably from an NRA instructor.

Whichever way you find available to you, there's no substitute for hands-on instruction and lots of practice. You'll hit a point where you "get it", and can coach yourself by recognizing your own mistakes, but that point varies a lot from person to person. First, you have to get comfortable with handling firearms, and confident in your own knowledge of how they work.

Good luck with it!

Kevin
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citizen_142002

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Re: Question about Manchester and NH gun laws
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2005, 03:50:45 pm »

OK,
I know that there is one federal permit that is designed specifically for collectors, but there are also permits that allow for the manufacture, sale, and possesion of new automatic weapons. The owners permit I am referring to is a one time 300$ tax paid to the ATF, and there are loads of regulations about keeping the permits on you/with the firearm.
There is a Class III dealer in Lebanon New Hampshire. The name of the store is Hardcore Airsoft. He is a real gun dealer, but he also carries a lot of Airsoft products. I am not sure that he has any information on-line about the actual firearms he sells. I have seen a pistol grip AK-74 up there, as well as a 6'' barrel shotgun. He also has an explosive ordinance license, for all that nice stuff that goes boom. If you are looking to purchase level III then I would look there. Beware that there is a relatively huge demand for a relatively small supply of these weapons, they can be very expensive.
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KBCraig

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Re: Question about Manchester and NH gun laws
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2005, 05:58:22 pm »

I found this link a few days ago. It's not the best written thing I've ever seen, but the information is good.

http://badexample.mu.nu/archives/072816.php

Kevin
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Blain

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Re: Question about Manchester and NH gun laws
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2005, 10:39:08 pm »

Are there any waiting/cooling off periods when purchasing a handgun in NH?
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KBCraig

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Re: Question about Manchester and NH gun laws
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2005, 01:38:26 am »

Are there any waiting/cooling off periods when purchasing a handgun in NH?

No.

Kevin
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Mike Lorrey

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Re: Question about Manchester and NH gun laws
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2005, 11:55:32 pm »

OK,
I know that there is one federal permit that is designed specifically for collectors, but there are also permits that allow for the manufacture, sale, and possesion of new automatic weapons. The owners permit I am referring to is a one time 300$ tax paid to the ATF, and there are loads of regulations about keeping the permits on you/with the firearm.
There is a Class III dealer in Lebanon New Hampshire. The name of the store is Hardcore Airsoft. He is a real gun dealer, but he also carries a lot of Airsoft products. I am not sure that he has any information on-line about the actual firearms he sells. I have seen a pistol grip AK-74 up there, as well as a 6'' barrel shotgun. He also has an explosive ordinance license, for all that nice stuff that goes boom. If you are looking to purchase level III then I would look there. Beware that there is a relatively huge demand for a relatively small supply of these weapons, they can be very expensive.

That is Greg Henderson's outfit. He and I went to high school together.

Firstly: a) civilians can only buy Class III weapons which were manufactured prior to 1986,
b) there are about 100,000 of these in circulation in the US
c) there are class III weapons manufactured since then, but they are only tranferrable to law enforcement, military, and other FFL Class III holders.

Greg is both a Class III dealer and manufacturer. He knows class III weaponry.

Keep in mind that the recent US v Stewart ruling in the 9th district has not yet been appealed to the US Supreme Court, so it only applies in the 9th district. If you don't know what that ruling is, a guy built a machine gun in his basement, the AFT busted him, the court ruled that since he built it at home, it wasn't interstate commerce, so the ATF didn't have any authority, so he got his gun back.
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