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Author Topic: Just joined the forums...  (Read 14559 times)

KBCraig

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2005, 08:56:39 pm »

However, it is not possible that he is both stupid and evil.

You never met my ex-mother-in-law.

Kevin
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JonM

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2005, 08:59:41 pm »

I've never once claimed to be a Libertarian, though I have acknowledged libertarian ideas run through my head.

I believe actions have consequences, and I believe simply abandoning Iraq right now has worse consequences than staying to get them on their feet, as it were.  Welcome to the Pottery Barn theory of foreign policy.

Now I'd think everyone would be happier if Iraq was just dissolved into the states that existed before England created Iraq after WWI.  Of course, Turkey doesn't want to see an independent Kurdish state, which appears to be the sticking point for that, because the oil rights and revenue sharing could probably be hammered out in treaties and constitutions.
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Greenbacks

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2005, 10:15:25 pm »

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Also, some argue that the war is a means to steal or control oil.  I find this argument to be lacking the necessary flavor of truth in that it makes more sense to deal with a crooked dictator who has a stranglehold on his people and therefore the resources of the country than to remove said dictator and create a lawless war zone where oil producing and transporting infrastructure are easy targets.

remember "we" thought "we" would be greeted as liberators...

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We must consider this argument:  It is possible that Bush is evil, and it is possible that Bush is stupid.  However, it is not possible that he is both stupid and evil.  If Bush is evil, then he invaded Iraq for evil purposes.  However, that requires us to assume that everyone who is participating in the war is also either evil or stupid, and that is not likely.  If Bush is stupid, then it is possible that he is being controlled by evil people.  However, this also requires that everyone else be either stupid or evil as well; as well as requiring us to believe that Bush is stupid, which is not likely.  Therefore, we must consider the possibility that the invasion of Iraq was done with good and honorable intentions by at least some of the people who have participated in it, although some others may have bad intentions.  I personally believe that this is true of most government actions:  That some people are doing what they believe to be the right thing - indeed, some who are doing wrong believe this as well - and some are doing evil.

I suggest you do a little research on the neo-con's favorite philosopher Leo Strauss and his "noble lie" ideal...

http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_3.2/mason.htm

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The end result is conscription, and in my opinion that is not morally or qualitatively superior to allowing recruiters access to government schools.

you mean the elite's children may have to fight?

wow, what a noble idea...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 10:21:31 pm by Greenbacks »
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JonM

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« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2005, 06:07:29 pm »

« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 06:09:03 pm by JonM »
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akamhale

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2005, 07:31:31 pm »

You have got to be kidding me.  In WWII When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, do you think they were just coming over for a cup of tea?  If we did nothing and had no military what do you think would have happened next?  Do you think they would have just left and gone back to Japan? Of course not!!  Other countries hate us because of the freedoms that we have.  Yes, our country is flawed!  Our government is too big!  Our taxes are too high!  We are over-regulated!  Maybe we should not be policing the rest of the world with our military.  But I would still rather live here in the USA than any other country in the world.  If the USA is too horrible for you Green, maybe you should check out citizenship in another country.  I believe Canada has no military.  How can you fault our miltary personnel for what they do?  Many join the military as young men and women and they do what their country asks of them.  That is a noble thing.  They go where they are ordered to go and do what their country asks them to do regardless of their own feelings on the matter.   I agree with the bumper sticker.  Support the troops regardless of where or what their mission is.  It is not their fault where they are sent.  And I correspond with many men and women in the military and have yet to meet any who have low morale or are not gung-ho about their mission.  The Iraqis they meet are happy and grateful that we are there and have liberated them.  Why do we have to be a bunch of selfish bastards and keep the freedom to ourselves?  Most of the terrorists that are shooting up or guys are not even from Iraq - they are from Jordan, Iran, Syria and other surrounding countries.  They are afraid of Iraq being a free country because freedom is a huge threat to terrorists so they are fighting for their very survival. They do not want IRaq to be free.  And thousands of Americans have not died - it is under 2,000.  That is 2,000 more than it should be - 1 more than it should be to the parents and loved ones of any that we have lost.  I also believe that if we do not go after the terrorists on their own turf and ignore them then they will be over here on our turf.  Is that what you want?  You want them coming over here and blowing up your family?  It is ignorant to think that we do not need a military.  A military is always going to be necessary.  The reason we have not been attacked by other countries since WWII is because other countries have know that if they shoot us, they know we can shoot back.  It is unfortunately a reality of life that we have to live with.  No, I don't like it.  I wish it were not so.  But just because we decide to get rid of our military and stop spending money on defense systems is not going to make the enemies of the USA go away.  That is a pipedream.  So you need to pull your head out of the clouds and get back to reality.
Akamhale (new FSP member who just couldn't stand my and keep my mouth shut anymore)
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Green

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2005, 07:47:57 pm »

You have got to be kidding me.  In WWII When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, do you think they were just coming over for a cup of tea?  If we did nothing and had no military what do you think would have happened next?  Do you think they would have just left and gone back to Japan? Of course not!!  Other countries hate us because of the freedoms that we have.  Yes, our country is flawed!  Our government is too big!  Our taxes are too high!  We are over-regulated!

No mention of corporate domination of every aspect of our lives?

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Maybe we should not be policing the rest of the world with our military.  But I would still rather live here in the USA than any other country in the world.  If the USA is too horrible for you Green, maybe you should check out citizenship in another country.

To do that would be to admit defeat.  I'm not defeatist.  I believe in fighting to change the country I already live in.

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I believe Canada has no military.  How can you fault our miltary personnel for what they do?  Many join the military as young men and women and they do what their country asks of them.  That is a noble thing.  They go where they are ordered to go and do what their country asks them to do regardless of their own feelings on the matter.   I agree with the bumper sticker.  Support the troops regardless of where or what their mission is.  It is not their fault where they are sent.  And I correspond with many men and women in the military and have yet to meet any who have low morale or are not gung-ho about their mission.  The Iraqis they meet are happy and grateful that we are there and have liberated them.

Which is why our governments own polls indicate that 92% of the Iraqi people want our military to leave immediately.

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Why do we have to be a bunch of selfish bastards and keep the freedom to ourselves?  Most of the terrorists that are shooting up or guys are not even from Iraq - they are from Jordan, Iran, Syria and other surrounding countries.  They are afraid of Iraq being a free country because freedom is a huge threat to terrorists so they are fighting for their very survival. They do not want IRaq to be free.  And thousands of Americans have not died - it is under 2,000.  That is 2,000 more than it should be - 1 more than it should be to the parents and loved ones of any that we have lost.  I also believe that if we do not go after the terrorists on their own turf and ignore them then they will be over here on our turf.  Is that what you want?  You want them coming over here and blowing up your family?  It is ignorant to think that we do not need a military.  A military is always going to be necessary.  The reason we have not been attacked by other countries since WWII is because other countries have know that if they shoot us, they know we can shoot back.  It is unfortunately a reality of life that we have to live with.  No, I don't like it.  I wish it were not so.  But just because we decide to get rid of our military and stop spending money on defense systems is not going to make the enemies of the USA go away.  That is a pipedream.  So you need to pull your head out of the clouds and get back to reality.
Akamhale (new FSP member who just couldn't stand my and keep my mouth shut anymore)

The more time I spend here, the more I get the sense that the pro-war "Libertarians" outnumber the anti-war ones...SAD, folks, SAD.  Where are your principles?   ???


The practice of organized violence is the defining characteristic of any government.  You have absolutely no grounds whatsoever to complain about "big government" if you support war.

I strongly suggest you read these articles-
http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory58.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory57.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/war-revisionism.html
« Last Edit: March 28, 2005, 07:52:21 pm by Green »
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Green

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2005, 07:49:03 pm »

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"The liberty of man consists solely in this: that he obeys natural laws because he has himself recognized them as such, and not because they have been externally imposed upon him by any extrinsic will whatever, divine or human, collective or individual." -Mikhail Bakunin

FTL_Ian

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2005, 09:04:09 pm »

Akam,

    Welcome to the Forum.  That said, allow me to rebut:

You have got to be kidding me.  In WWII When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, do you think they were just coming over for a cup of tea?
They were retailiating against our blockade, and us attacking and sinking one of their submarines.

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If we did nothing and had no military what do you think would have happened next?  Do you think they would have just left and gone back to Japan? Of course not!!
We were attacked because we did something to them first!

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  Other countries hate us because of the freedoms that we have.
Incorrect.  To be more precise, people in other countries hate us because of what our government does to them.  Our government sticks its nose in their business, takes sides, and kills innocent people.

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Yes, our country is flawed!  Our government is too big!  Our taxes are too high!  We are over-regulated!  Maybe we should not be policing the rest of the world with our military.
Agreed, though I would say we DEFINITELY should not police the rest of the world.

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How can you fault our miltary personnel for what they do?
It is the fault of each individual who chooses to follow bad orders.

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Many join the military as young men and women and they do what their country asks of them.  That is a noble thing.
The nobility aspect is nothing more than a PR cover for people joining the military and taking orders from old men in Washington.  If they actually did what I wanted them to, they'd be home right now doing something productive.

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  They go where they are ordered to go and do what their country asks them to do regardless of their own feelings on the matter.   I agree with the bumper sticker.  Support the troops regardless of where or what their mission is.  It is not their fault where they are sent. 
Sure it's their fault.  They *could* say no.  Some have, and have been court martialed for it.  Now that's noble.

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And I correspond with many men and women in the military and have yet to meet any who have low morale or are not gung-ho about their mission.  The Iraqis they meet are happy and grateful that we are there and have liberated them. 
You're spreading pure propaganda.  Everyone in the military have different feelings about their situation.

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Why do we have to be a bunch of selfish bastards and keep the freedom to ourselves?
You're really a FSP member?  I would expect you would realize that freedom is available to all those who wish to have it, and it cannot be forced on people.

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  Most of the terrorists that are shooting up or guys are not even from Iraq - they are from Jordan, Iran, Syria and other surrounding countries.  They are afraid of Iraq being a free country because freedom is a huge threat to terrorists so they are fighting for their very survival.
Clearly you've interviewed them all, and aren't just pulling that from your ass.  Perhaps they just want to kill some Americans because we did something they didn't like sometime in the past.

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I also believe that if we do not go after the terrorists on their own turf and ignore them then they will be over here on our turf.  Is that what you want?  You want them coming over here and blowing up your family? 
What is stopping them from doing that right now?  The more people we kill over there, the more we meddle, the more terrorists we CREATE.

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It is ignorant to think that we do not need a military.  A military is always going to be necessary.  The reason we have not been attacked by other countries since WWII is because other countries have know that if they shoot us, they know we can shoot back.
We'd shoot back even without a military, because we have the right to bear arms.

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But just because we decide to get rid of our military and stop spending money on defense systems is not going to make the enemies of the USA go away.  That is a pipedream.  So you need to pull your head out of the clouds and get back to reality.

While I would like to see the military disappear, I agree that it is indeed a fantasy.  Would you agree that if we brought them all home, we'd be quite a bit safer?

Regards,
Ian
« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 03:08:34 am by FTL_Ian »
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Green

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2005, 12:58:43 am »

THANK YOU IAN!!   :)

I was too lazy to go through and rebut his rant, though it clearly shows a misguided conservative & nationalist dogmatism.
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"The liberty of man consists solely in this: that he obeys natural laws because he has himself recognized them as such, and not because they have been externally imposed upon him by any extrinsic will whatever, divine or human, collective or individual." -Mikhail Bakunin

KBCraig

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2005, 02:38:36 am »

You have got to be kidding me.  In WWII When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, do you think they were just coming over for a cup of tea?  If we did nothing and had no military what do you think would have happened next?  Do you think they would have just left and gone back to Japan? Of course not!!  Other countries hate us because of the freedoms that we have.  Yes, our country is flawed!  Our government is too big!  Our taxes are too high!  We are over-regulated!

No mention of corporate domination of every aspect of our lives?

"Obsession with corporations in every aspect of your life" != "corporate domination of every aspect of our lives"

Really. This is just silly. My 14 year-old son and I took our dogs for a walk, had a nice conversation, and never once had to bow down to a corporation, nor ponder the risks of not toeing the corporate line. Later, we had our nightly family game of Scrabble; perhaps you think that somehow means that Parker Bros. is running my life.

The next morning being Easter, I spent private time in prayer and devotion, pondering the wonderfullness of the Grace that causes Christians to celebrate that holiday. Zondervan Publishing didn't hover nearby to make sure I did things the way they thought I should.

I believe that "corporate dominance" dominates your life. It seems to be your raison d'etre. Your personal obsession does not translate to to universal servitude. While I respect your opinions, were you someone close to me, I'd remind you steadily to get a real life.

Regards,

Kevin
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LeopardPM

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2005, 12:41:31 am »

Count me as another anti-war libertarian, or anarchist, or whatever.

The state always maintains and perpetrates the myth that the reason that the state itself is necessary is to protect us from other states.  As a 'non-state' we become a 'non-threat' to everyone.  As complete free traders, we individually build bonds and bridges with the hearts and minds of the citizens of other countries.  Invasion will become much less of a threat than it is now.

Recall our troops.  Recall our ambassadors. Apologize to the world for the things our government has done on our behalf and explain to them that we will not be doing anything like that again: invading, protecting, coercing, bribing, funding, or otherwise influencing the governments in other countries.  Explain that when each of us or groups of us take action it is not a reflection on the geographical 'nation' as a whole, it is merely independent action and they are responsible for any repricussions.  This means we will not be protecting multi-national corporate interests in other countries.  Also mention that we will be defaulting on the entirty of the dollar and will be practicing free market money systems - that should throw everyone for a gigantic loop.

just wanting to stir things up a bit so that the cream can more easily rise to the top,
michael
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nothing to say...

Dreepa

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2005, 01:50:34 am »

Green I will say it again---- why don't you spend more time 'fighting the man'?
Why spend some much time on this forum?

KB you forgot that Dell is forcing thoughts in your head because of the keyboard you are typing. ;)
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KBCraig

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2005, 02:30:16 am »

KB you forgot that Dell is forcing thoughts in your head because of the keyboard you are typing. ;)

Do you mean the Logitech keyboard connected to my MS-free Macintosh?  :)

Don't just Think Different. Be Different. :)

Kevin
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tbratton

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2005, 06:58:15 pm »

Many Americans, including my self, think that this administration orchestrated the 9/11 attacks and fixed evidence to gain support for war with Iraq.  I think changes in the middle east are long overdue.  How these changes come about seems to me to be a horrible and dispicable reality. 
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KBCraig

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2005, 12:55:41 am »

Many Americans, including my self, think that this administration orchestrated the 9/11 attacks . . .

I keep forgetting... is it shiny side in, or out?

Kevin
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