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Author Topic: Just joined the forums...  (Read 14548 times)

5thconcerto

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2005, 09:33:19 am »

First step,
Return all military personnel to American soil.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2005, 09:47:25 am »

First step,
Return all military personnel to American soil.

What a wonderful day that will be.
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RidleyReport

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2005, 06:47:46 pm »

Welcome gho5t! 

Guys people join the marines in many cases because they believe in protecting the few freedoms we have left!

Thanks for your service and I look forward to meeting you in person when you get here to NH

Hope you will consider coming to Porcupine Fest here in July:

http://freestateproject.org/news/festival/
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Green

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2005, 06:50:19 pm »

First step,
Return all military personnel to American soil.

Easier said than done... have to build the anti-war movement if we want that to happen.

Demanding military recruitment out of our communities and local high schools is the first step.
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"The liberty of man consists solely in this: that he obeys natural laws because he has himself recognized them as such, and not because they have been externally imposed upon him by any extrinsic will whatever, divine or human, collective or individual." -Mikhail Bakunin

5thconcerto

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2005, 07:15:18 pm »

First step,
Return all military personnel to American soil.

Easier said than done... have to build the anti-war movement if we want that to happen.

Demanding military recruitment out of our communities and local high schools is the first step.

You just don't get it green. I wasn't just talking about Iraq. I want ALL military personnel on our soil. Your way is exclusionary. Hey, I have an idea, let's not let Green Party candidates/members in our communities and schools. 
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Green

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2005, 07:24:47 pm »

First step,
Return all military personnel to American soil.

Easier said than done... have to build the anti-war movement if we want that to happen.

Demanding military recruitment out of our communities and local high schools is the first step.

You just don't get it green. I wasn't just talking about Iraq. I want ALL military personnel on our soil. Your way is exclusionary. Hey, I have an idea, let's not let Green Party candidates/members in our communities and schools. 

The military is a government agency, and the most wasteful, bloated, and destructive agency at that.  I thought you were against big government.
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5thconcerto

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2005, 07:34:17 pm »

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Green:The military is a government agency, and the most wasteful, bloated, and destructive agency at that.  I thought you were against big government.

You just can't stop making assumptions. Why don't you read what someone writes, rather than what you expect them to write?
I'll spell it out for you, even though you probably won't pay attention.
I want all military personnel on American soil. Yes, we do have FAR more than we need for defensive purposes. Preventing the military from recruiting in towns is childish. There is something called freedom of speech involved. Of course you only believe in it when it suits your purpose.
You need to grow up green. Nobody is going to take you at all seriously until you quit with your childish "smashing" things, and whining when things don't go your way.
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Green

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2005, 07:39:27 pm »

Quote
Green:The military is a government agency, and the most wasteful, bloated, and destructive agency at that.  I thought you were against big government.

You just can't stop making assumptions. Why don't you read what someone writes, rather than what you expect them to write?
I'll spell it out for you, even though you probably won't pay attention.
I want all military personnel on American soil. Yes, we do have FAR more than we need for defensive purposes. Preventing the military from recruiting in towns is childish. There is something called freedom of speech involved. Of course you only believe in it when it suits your purpose.
You need to grow up green. Nobody is going to take you at all seriously until you quit with your childish "smashing" things, and whining when things don't go your way.

"Whining"?  I'm a political activist and organizer who is working to transform society.  Talking about reality is not "whining" unless you prefer that everyone should just shutup and not express their opinions.

And military recruitment is not about "free speech" its about the federal government forcing communities to let their children be harrassed by the military.  The "No Child Left Behind" act mandates that all public schools disclose the names, phone numbers, and residence of every junior and senior student, and requires that the school allow military recruiters into the building at any time during school hours to talk with students.

I'm not advocating that individuals who happen to be in the military be censored- they have the right to say whatever they want.  I'm advocating that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT STOPS FORCING OUR COMMUNITIES AND SCHOOLS TO BE HAVENS FOR THE PROMOTION OF MILITARISM AND IMPERIALISM.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2005, 07:44:41 pm by Green »
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5thconcerto

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2005, 07:45:47 pm »

So you noticed there are "strings" involved with Federal Assistance Programs. Why aren't you advocating that schools and state/local governments NOT TAKE federal assistance monies? If thy don't take the money, they don't have to abide by the "strings".
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2005, 10:48:08 pm »

The military needs to be repealed.  It's nothing more than the Post Office in fatigues.  Actually, the Post Office actually provides a service, (though a poor one).
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JonM

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2005, 12:13:02 am »

The military needs to be repealed.  It's nothing more than the Post Office in fatigues.  Actually, the Post Office actually provides a service, (though a poor one).

Allow me to be the first veteran to take offense at that statement and suggest that insulting an entire pool of potential FSP recruits is not perhaps the best of ideas.  Regardless of how the military is used or misused by our country's leaders, the spirit that brings one to join the military tends to be an honorable one.  Though there are many in now who joined in peace time and did not expect to end up in a war zone, their bravery in defense of what they believe to be this nation's interests should not be denigrated so.  They may come to question the wisdom of the leaders that put them in harm's way, and they may find the FSP and consider that its goals are truly what the spirit America is meant to be and join us.  Even the ones who believe that being in Iraq and serving as a target for the terrorists who might otherwise come to America to bring the attacks here may find value in the goals of the FSP when they come back home.

Military folks are used to moving around, many have been in far worse climates than New England, and many have leadership abilities that would serve them quite well as political activists.  Let us not cast aspersions on the tools for what the carpenter builds with them.
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Green

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2005, 12:43:21 am »

The military needs to be repealed.  It's nothing more than the Post Office in fatigues.  Actually, the Post Office actually provides a service, (though a poor one).

Allow me to be the first veteran to take offense at that statement and suggest that insulting an entire pool of potential FSP recruits is not perhaps the best of ideas.  Regardless of how the military is used or misused by our country's leaders, the spirit that brings one to join the military tends to be an honorable one.

I have to very strongly disagree with you on this.  I have friends who joined the national guard and ROTC to pay for college, but not because they thought it was honorable.

The United States military is the most murderous, destructive, and reactionary institution in the world today. In just over 3 years, it is responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians and the imperial conquering of three nations- Afghanistan, Iraq, and Haiti.

On top of that, it has a long and well-documented history (though rarely discussed in “mainstream” politics) of being a tool for the repression and subjugation of literally hundreds of nations, and billions of people throughout the world. To be blunt, our government is a world empire. That’s right, I said it- we are subjects of an empire.

There is nothing "honorable" about serving that system, ESPECIALLY if you think that you are doing it to "defend freedom."  All it shows is that you are blindly nationalistic, conservative, or believe that the government defends freedom, rather than simply being a tool of repression, which it is in reality.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 12:49:31 am by Green »
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2005, 12:45:08 am »

Allow me to be the first veteran to take offense at that statement and suggest that insulting an entire pool of potential FSP recruits is not perhaps the best of ideas. 
Whoa there!  Settle down.  There was no insult in my quote.  Just a valid comparison.  The military is a waste of time, money, effort, and life.

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Regardless of how the military is used or misused by our country's leaders, the spirit that brings one to join the military tends to be an honorable one.
Sure it's honorable.  It could be argued that it's honorable to want to deliver the mail as well.

Quote
Though there are many in now who joined in peace time and did not expect to end up in a war zone,
If there's one thing you can safely expect from the military, it's that there are real good odds your ass is going to be in a war zone.  I'm sorry the troops were duped by the propaganda, but to feel sorry because they thought the wouldn't have to fight?  I can't do that.

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their bravery in defense of what they believe to be this nation's interests should not be denigrated so.
Postal Employees' bravery to deliver the mail need not be denigrated.  I never denigrated anybody.  Incidentally, I feel sorry for the postal employees too.

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They may come to question the wisdom of the leaders that put them in harm's way, and they may find the FSP and consider that its goals are truly what the spirit America is meant to be and join us.
Many ex-military come to this line of thinking, from those I've spoken with.  Well, assuming they survived the brainwashing and bullets, they do.

Quote
Military folks are used to moving around, many have been in far worse climates than New England, and many have leadership abilities that would serve them quite well as political activists.  Let us not cast aspersions on the tools for what the carpenter builds with them.
Again, you read WAY to far into my statement.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Ian
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JonM

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2005, 01:31:03 am »

The military needs to be repealed.  It's nothing more than the Post Office in fatigues.  Actually, the Post Office actually provides a service, (though a poor one).

Allow me to be the first veteran to take offense at that statement and suggest that insulting an entire pool of potential FSP recruits is not perhaps the best of ideas.  Regardless of how the military is used or misused by our country's leaders, the spirit that brings one to join the military tends to be an honorable one.

I have to very strongly disagree with you on this.  I have friends who joined the national guard and ROTC to pay for college, but not because they thought it was honorable.
For those joining the ROTC, I have no pity for them.  They did not join the ROTC in a world where we weren't sending the military off to conflicts every few years.  When I joined in 1989 we hadn't done much more than a field trip to Grenada.  After the first gulf war started a year later, there is little excuse for anyone joining the ROTC, active duty or Reserves for not expecting the possibility they might be sent to war.  As far as the National Guard goes, I tend to believe the National part of that should ring true.  They joined with the expectation they might be called up to help out in some sort of natural disaster, not to be sent to another country because the active duty forces had been so depleted that they were the only way to fill the gap.  For them I have pity, they got into something they had no reason to expect to get into.

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The United States military is the most murderous, destructive, and reactionary institution in the world today. In just over 3 years, it is responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians and the imperial conquering of three nations- Afghanistan, Iraq, and Haiti.
I'm sure the millions killed by other regimes around the world might tend to disagree with you that the U.S. Military should take that top "honor."   I doubt most of the people in Afghanistan are unhappy with what happened to the Taliban who were repressing them.  Time will tell in Iraq, and as for Haiti, welcome to Bill Clinton's world of military intervention.  Nothing about that ever made much sense, then or now.  I believe the UN is in charge of that debacle at the moment.

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On top of that, it has a long and well-documented history (though rarely discussed in “mainstream” politics) of being a tool for the repression and subjugation of literally hundreds of nations, and billions of people throughout the world. To be blunt, our government is a world empire. That’s right, I said it- we are subjects of an empire.

Then why is gas $3 a gallon in California?  We're a pretty lousy empire if you ask me.  I'm pretty sure the over 1 billion people of China are un-subjected by our military.  In fact, I'm pretty sure the majority of people on Earth are being subjected by someone other than the United States, but I suppose that might well depend on what your definition of subjected is.

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There is nothing "honorable" about serving that system, ESPECIALLY if you think that you are doing it to "defend freedom."  All it shows is that you are blindly nationalistic, conservative, or believe that the government defends freedom, rather than simply being a tool of repression, which it is in reality.
I disagree.  But then, based on how you react to those who disagrees with your view of the world, this is not surprising.
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JonM

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Re: Just joined the forums...
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2005, 01:41:55 am »

Allow me to be the first veteran to take offense at that statement and suggest that insulting an entire pool of potential FSP recruits is not perhaps the best of ideas. 
Whoa there!  Settle down.  There was no insult in my quote.  Just a valid comparison.  The military is a waste of time, money, effort, and life.

So allow me to take offense to that as well.

Quote
Quote
Regardless of how the military is used or misused by our country's leaders, the spirit that brings one to join the military tends to be an honorable one.
Sure it's honorable.  It could be argued that it's honorable to want to deliver the mail as well.

And that.

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Quote
Though there are many in now who joined in peace time and did not expect to end up in a war zone,
If there's one thing you can safely expect from the military, it's that there are real good odds your ass is going to be in a war zone.  I'm sorry the troops were duped by the propaganda, but to feel sorry because they thought the wouldn't have to fight?  I can't do that.

Who asked for your pity? I merely point out that it may not be in the best interest of FSP recruitment to blanket insult a pool of potential recruits.

Quote
Quote
their bravery in defense of what they believe to be this nation's interests should not be denigrated so.
Postal Employees' bravery to deliver the mail need not be denigrated.  I never denigrated anybody.  Incidentally, I feel sorry for the postal employees too.

Quote
They may come to question the wisdom of the leaders that put them in harm's way, and they may find the FSP and consider that its goals are truly what the spirit America is meant to be and join us.
Many ex-military come to this line of thinking, from those I've spoken with.  Well, assuming they survived the brainwashing and bullets, they do.

Feel free to stop at any time.

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Quote
Military folks are used to moving around, many have been in far worse climates than New England, and many have leadership abilities that would serve them quite well as political activists.  Let us not cast aspersions on the tools for what the carpenter builds with them.
Again, you read WAY to far into my statement.


Words have power.  People will interpret your statements through the prism of their own perspective, not yours.  Though you may not intend to insult, you do.  Though you may not wish to repel, you might.

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Thanks for your thoughts,
Ian

You're welcome.
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