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Author Topic: "Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war  (Read 5385 times)

Zxcv

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"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« on: November 23, 2002, 04:58:28 pm »

A friend just pointed this site out to me. I have some issues with it, but I believe it can help somewhat in the area of attitude adjustment:

http://www.kithrup.com/brin/libertarianarticle1.html

We will have to become more sympathetic if we want people to give our ideas and plans fair consideration...
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5pectre

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2002, 09:22:36 pm »

i liked this quote:

"Universal education in state schools helped uplift prior generations out of illiterate class systems -- we admit it!
 
"Only now our higher standards and needs and wants have far outstripped the ability of those old-fashioned public schools to deliver. Yes, we have these higher standards because public education helped get us this high. We admit the irony! Nevertheless, it's obvious that the old model of public education is now dragging at the ankles of our rising ambitions. It won't get us any higher! Lack of choice is preventing further progress by stifling educational innovations that might arise out of competition.
 
"As a general principle, we argue that -- with rising sophistication -- people can move on to simpler and more mature synergies that make progressively less use of coercive state power, leveraging against individual effort more and more as time goes on.
 
"And yes, this will benefit the poor as well. We are absolutely counting on that.
 
"Give us a chance to try some experiments and prove it!"


If only the movement was more like that and less anti-everything :) acknowledging good points and railing bad points regardless of the purputrators
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Zxcv

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2002, 02:16:34 am »

Actually, 5pectre, that was one of the points I took issue with in his essay. It's one thing to be sympathetic, it's another thing entirely to propagate a false history of institutions like government schools.

But I was not wanting to argue specifics, but the general points of his essay.

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Perhaps the shame of being labeled as such alone might snap them out of it... maybe not. However, personally I tend not to label any individual as part of the "sheeple". I allow them to do so themselves, it being a case of, if the shoe fits...

The problem is, you are looking at it from the point of you, the Superior One. They won't look at it this way. They will simply see a bunch of people trying to move into their state, who think of most others (including them) as sheep, and wanting to herd them in a particular direction.

In other words, it's not that they are labeling themselves as sheep. It's that they see you labelling them as sheep. And you know what? I think they would be correct in that perception.

As Brin points out, that's no way to win an election.

Are you sure you want to use Hitler and Bernays for our role models? And what's the point of that Lazarus Long/Heinlein quote in your signature? To antagonize people in the state we are wishing to be accepted in? Why?

Another resource that reinforces this point is Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People". Yeah, it's corny stuff - I dismissed it for years myself. Then I finally took a look and discovered the man really knew what he was talking about. You will never get anywhere with people if you don't have some sympathy for them (or at least, are able to put up a believable facsimile of it).
« Last Edit: November 24, 2002, 02:23:20 am by Zxcv »
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JayPrimePositive

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2002, 03:25:27 am »

Hear hear, well said.  There are no 'sheeple.'  There are however allies of freedom with whom we will team to create the state with the greatest liberty.

j'
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This message is copyright 2002 by Jay Prime Positive.  It is infact 'copyleft' and available without notice under the license at http://www.seanet.com/~jpp/mycopyleft.html

SandyPrice

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2002, 09:53:44 am »

I was born and raised as an independent thinker.  It was one way my grandparents kept me away from gangs and peer groups "who were up to no good."

I became an intellectual rebel and had a lot of trouble fitting in with any group.  I read the Constitution at the age of 10 (during WW2) and considered it excellent and worthy of support.  I read the bible again at the same time and found it to be crap!

In the last 60 years I have not changed my opinion of either!  I read Rand's writings in the early 60s and discovered a true individual and have never stepped out of her Objectivism for a minute.

I always considered the GOP to be the party of individual freedoms but ran into the Conservative movement in 1992 and backed away.  

I remember Dr. Brin from years ago and have flagged his site and will spent the first of my free hours in refreshing my memory of his stuff.  Thanks!

Sadly Americans are sheep!  I see them evolving backwards (devolving?)  and getting dumber and dumber by the minute.  We do have a handfull of great brains in America and I believe we may be gathering a few right here at the FSP.  I feel we owe it to humanity to stop being sheep and start using the brains that are supposed to be within each of us, even the oldest of us.  

10 years ago I went back to night school to learn how to use a computer (remind me to find the designer of DOS and kill him).  I had been executive secretary to our Symphony orchestra and had to take minutes of our meetings and send them out to all our board members.  When I saw a computer demonstrated I quickly went back to school to learn more.  I was over 60 at that time but it didn't stop me for a minute.

The trainer was a wonderful young man and was very patient with some of the grandmothers in his group but I discovered he couldn't write a single sentence.  He could read but he missed language in his training.  Academics were apparently not offered in his schools.  

There was no doubt he had a good brain but he had not been trained to use it properly.  He learned his trade by rote instead of logical and rational thought.  

Politically I have run into thousands of these poorly trained people.  They learn to follow directions but they can't put a thought of their own into anything.  They are sheep!

I hope we can get this sheep attitude out of our programs and we can gather other free-thinkers into this group.  But sheep can be trained to use their brains and we shouldn't slam the door in their faces.  Does this make any sense?

We must also assume that people interested in the FSP are not all of one model.  We don't want to give the impression that we are running from reality but trying to form a freer side of reality.  

I have my own form of political agenda and just because it was popular in the early days of America doesn't mean it has no value.  I am so far removed from the current form of the GOP and absolutely opposed to the neo Conservatives of today that I may be one of the most despised people on the internet.  To live with more freedoms is almost more than I can comprehend as in the last 70 years I have seen all our freedoms either removed or cut back so severely that it is hard to recognize our Constitution any more.  It it the perfect document folks and there is nothing like it anywhere in the world.

My only question to the FSP is how far they intend to stray from the Constitution.  I do not mean the present interpretation but the basic Bill of Rights.
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Zxcv

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2002, 11:43:29 am »

Quote
Quote:
To antagonize people in the state we are wishing to be accepted in? Why?
 


If they are that easily antagonized thats their problem, not mine. Those easily antagonized are easily defeated. Such type of folks aren't the ones we'll have to worry about.

Well, it's your problem if they are voting on your proposals.

Let me see if I can understand your position. People are divided into 3 simple categories: good people who think, bad people who think, and sheep who don't think. The game is, for good people who think to manipulate the sheep better than the bad people who think?

If that's it, it's a pretty sad way to look at the world. Just because Bernays and Hitler found one way to get people to do what they wanted, doesn't mean it's the only way.

Besides, I bet even Hitler didn't start every speech telling his audience what sheep they were. His attitudes were probably reserved for his inner circle. Guess what, on the Internet, our attitudes are here for everyone to see.

The reality is, there are some people who think about some things, others who think about other things, some who are learning to think, some who have given up thinking, and on and on. Maybe even some who think too much (e.g., academics). And there is the possibility that even if you think, you may be wrong on some things you think about. :o

The reality is, you have to deal with all these varieties of people. And the best way to get what you want from them is to have some empathy for them, to like them. And its hard to like someone you have contempt for.

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We must also assume that people interested in the FSP are not all of one model.  We don't want to give the impression that we are running from reality but trying to form a freer side of reality.  

My issue is not with the people interested in the FSP. I assume they will mostly be libertarians. My issue is with the way we present ourselves to those non-libertarians we are attempting to sway, when we move to our selected state.

For example, I have some friends who are strong Christians, with libertarian leanings. They would probably be our allies on maybe 80% of our issues. Why would anyone go out of their way to antagonize such folks? Just to make oneself feel superior? Is that "thinking"? I like that LL quote myself, but there is a place and time for everything. It's called, having good manners.
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wes237

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2002, 10:45:34 pm »

MouseBorg ... Reply # 10

Well said !
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Penfist

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2002, 10:43:43 am »

Hear hear, well said.  There are no 'sheeple.'  There are however allies of freedom with whom we will team to create the state with the greatest liberty.

j'

I respectfully disagree. There are sheeple, and I would prefer they understand that they are sheeple (however unlikely that scenario is).

I do not want to placate or pacify sheeple to get them on my side if it means having them for neighbors down the road.

I want to live in a sheeple intolerant zone. The "baa" noise made by the average herd of sheeple is simply deafening, and I already have hearing issues from being in the military.
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I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
--Thomas Jefferson

5pectre

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2002, 12:41:13 pm »

Actually, 5pectre, that was one of the points I took issue with in his essay. It's one thing to be sympathetic, it's another thing entirely to propagate a false history of institutions like government schools.

How was he propagating a false history?
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Penfist

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2002, 08:46:37 pm »

Quote
author=Palindrome
I want to live in a sheeple intolerant zone. The "baa" noise made by the average herd of sheeple is simply deafening, and I already have hearing issues from being in the military.

ROTFL! <cough cough> I was taking a sip of tea when I read that. ;D

And yes, the sooner we admit that there are what amounts to different species of "humans" on this planet (not related to color, religion, nationality, etc), some being sheeple, and others being the other sort, the sooner we can establish a solid and realistic basis for relative liberty - but only for those who wish such liberty, and are willing to accept the responsibility such liberty entails.

Do you think it would be wrong to open a bar and put up a sign saying "Dogs and sheeple are not welcome?"

Hehe.
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I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
--Thomas Jefferson

Zxcv

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2002, 10:20:43 pm »

Quote
Quote:
Quote:
To antagonize people in the state we are wishing to be accepted in? Why?



If they are that easily antagonized thats their problem, not mine. Those easily antagonized are easily defeated. Such type of folks aren't the ones we'll have to worry about.
 


Well, it's your problem if they are voting on your proposals
And you replied, in a non-sequitur:
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Umm... I don't recall saying I would be running for anything.
To which I reply, "smart move". But anyway, getting back to the point, if we are trying to move some proposals in the chosen state, via initiative, or through our people in the legislature, or the like (I'm guessing that's what the FSP is all about - please let me know if I'm wrong), then there is no point in unecessarily antagonizing the people living there. Simple enough, isn't it? I'm not sure where you got the idea I'm advocating being two-faced, maybe you could find the quote and cite it so I can fix the confusion.

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If you happen to have watched the Fatherland Security thing rubber stamped through congress & senate, preceeded by similar treatment of the Anti-Patriot Act, you've seen a perfect example of what you suggest in action.
Please, again, quote me on your reply so I can find out what makes you think I am advocating this.

Quote
Quote:
Let me see if I can understand your position.
 


My position isn't all that complex... really. Simply stop trying so hard to spin it into something you can grab ahold of and argue with. I presented plenty of examples in previous posts, as well as a suggestion to read other related threads where much of this was already well covered. I note you did not address any of that.
Well, I simply did not understand your point there. That's why I was using one of the standard techniques for reducing misunderstanding, i.e., repeating back to you the argument I'm hearing from you, in the hope you would correct my understanding of it. You chose to blow it off. So it goes.

You do not have to tell me what Bernays thought up, or how advertising techniques work. Let's both agree those techniques exist, and are known to sway some or most people. What does that have to do with my original point, about not insulting people? If you want to posit sheep and not-sheep, fine. If you think you can carry that attitude into a state and get something done, you are wrong unless you rely on the techniques of Bernays. That is why I asked you that simplified picture of things. Is that your aim?

If we can get past this point (a simple yes or no will suffice), then we can carry on this discussion. If not, then I will stop. Talking past eash other loses its charm after a while.

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In my pocket I keep a small metal medallion. On it is stamped, "To Thine Own Self Be True."
Tell me what's on the back of it. Is it anything like, "And Make Sure You Rub Everyone Else's Nose In It?"

I like the saying, "To Thine Own Self Be True." In fact it's exactly the way I think about things. But there are effective ways of doing it, and self-defeating ways. I prefer the effective ones. I prefer treating other people as human beings, not sheep. I know they have defects, and are ignorant of a lot of things, because I'm aware I myself have defects as well.

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"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; moderation in principle is always a vice."
-- Thomas Paine
Not giving people in our chosen state, the impression I think the vast majority of them are sheep (even if I may think it privately) - that falls under "moderation in principle"???  And going ahead and giving that impression - that is "moderation in temper"?

Let's just drop this. If FSP is composed of mostly people like you, it's not for me. I have no stomach for Bernays. I thought libertarianism was about persuasion - not about pulling the wool over people's eyes.
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Zxcv

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2002, 11:42:28 am »

I don't presume that nobody will disagree with my opinions.

You have pigeonholed my suggestions as PC, a easy alternative to actually thinking about them.

I won't dictate (and wouldn't, even if it were in my power - which it ain't) anyone's speech or actions, and have not done so in this thread. Everything I have written was in the nature of persuasion, asking people to consider how their stated opinions might look to those same others we will be asking to accept us when we move to their state. Since you haven't noticed that it was persuasion, it is arguable who has been skipping large chunks of previous posts or ignoring them.

I don't advocate using the tactics of Bernays, which is pulling the wool over people's eyes, and because they are the same tactics used by the ruling class we have now. I don't want to replace the current tyrants with a new "improved" set. It's impossible to detect if you advocate Bernays because you are being coy about it - perhaps ashamed? But I won't press you any further on this point. You are off the hook.

I hope at least some other folks understood the point I was trying to make with this thread.
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Penfist

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2002, 03:11:52 pm »

Quote
author=Palindrome
Do you think it would be wrong to open a bar and put up a sign saying "Dogs and sheeple are not welcome?"

Well... I don't see a major problem with dogs really... if they are well behaved. ;D

How about this? Sheeple must be kept on a leash at all times. Owners are responsible for cleanup if they poop on the floor.
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I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
--Thomas Jefferson

Jude

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2002, 10:24:11 pm »

Diving into the fray with such an elitist attittude is ultimately self-defeating. While principles are nice, results are nice too. The means aren't so terrible in this instance, are they?
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"If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning."  - Frederick Douglass, former slave

Thermal

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Re:"Sheeple"?? Lose that attitude, or lose the war
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2002, 12:01:57 am »

Quote
always chamber with the target in mind. Hollowpoints and kevlar don't go well together

Quite the allegorical reference - I like it :-)
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