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Author Topic: Problems with the Constitution  (Read 12779 times)

mikegags

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Re:Problems with the Constitution
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2002, 07:47:44 am »

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There is a *lot* more to this than just declaring ourselves to be a Libertarian-
controlled (politically) state. The courts will not simply declare 90% of the Fed
govt unconsitutional. Lets not forget that the courts are part of that govt. To
think that the courts will listen or that the Federal govt will negotiate with our state is naive.
You are quite right in that the task before us is as monumental as was that of our founding fathers.  Once any government seizes power it is utterly opposed to relinquishing even the slightest measure of its control.  Our cries for justice in the chambers of the Supreme Court may well fall upon deaf ears.  The odds are stacked against us, but are we willing to forsake the battle?  I think not.  We will have to fight for every ounce of freedom we procure.  We will be hard pressed to convince the powers governing this nation to listen to us.  We will petition the courts, elect representatives, and invoke the powers of mass media to make our cause heard.  We will pass state and local laws securing liberty to the extending we are permitted under the tyranny of the federal government.  We will hold true to the ideals of our founding fathers and like them we will work peaceably so long as we are able to secure the blessings of liberty to which we are entitled under the constitution, bearing always in mind these words:

”When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”
I couldn't agree more. I think I have finally found my movement.  :)
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As I surf through the various topics here I see people talking about the environment, same-sex marriages, "voluntary socialism" (a conundrum if there ever was one), etc. These discussions have nothing to do with restoring our lost freedoms. We must put aside our personal agendas, as did our founding fathers, and focus on the single goal of restoring our freedom.
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On the contrary, they have everything to do with our lost freedoms.  If we do not seek to protect the freedoms of all of those who are with us, we will be as a house divided.  “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. (Ben Franklin)”
One thing is different than 200+ years ago. Those guys met in *person*. Talking via chat loses all emphasis.

My emphasis here is on *restoring* freedoms - not identifying which freedoms are lost or which we want. We can bicker about that, as did the F.F, *after* we have our freedom.
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We need to think like pilgrims. Not a bunch of horny 18 year-olds looking to drink beer and smoke marijuana.
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For the colonists who proclaimed their independence so long ago, the issue of molasses (used to make rum, the common mans liquor) and taxation on the same, was among the things they willing to fight for.  
I agree. Maybe I need to re-think my position in this area.  ??? As long as someone shares my passion and desire for freedom, that is all that matters. I am just concerned that when the going gets tough, and it will, those with less conviction will abandon us. And that is far more damaging than losing a leader(s).
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And we need leadership. We need a small group of articulate, charismatic idealists like ourselves that we can rally around and focus on when things get rough. We need a champion for our cause. And we need him/her before we select a state and begin our
movement. Who will be our Washtington, Jefferson or Adams?
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We do indeed need such people.  Not one leader, but many.  Not one voice, but a multitude of voices crying out, all different, yet ringing with the harmonious sound of liberty for us all.  “Who will be our Washington, Jefferson or Adams?”  That is yet to be seen, but if we are diligent in our efforts to secure freedom, we will find among our ranks, those men and women possessing the talent to illuminate our cause.

Agreed. Beware of those who volunteer  ;)

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Stay the course.

I will.

Mike

« Last Edit: August 09, 2002, 02:25:20 pm by mikegags »
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"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will.  But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."

Thomas Jefferson

Halo

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Re:Problems with the Constitution
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2002, 10:59:33 pm »

I'm new here and after reading a number of posts on various topics, would like to give my impressions and see what your responses are. First, I'm familiar with this environment of forums on the internet and have learned that people say things here that they would never say in person. It seems there is a certain degree of invulnerability in this virtual world. It is not my intention to flame anyone or offend anyone.

First of all I gather that most people here are either Libertarians or have libertarian inclinations. But, I see a lot of people who want a "Free State" so they can do whatever they want; using drugs, running around naked, arming their SUVs with rocket launchers, etc. That leans towards anarchy. Second, there seems to be a lot of atheists who don't like Christians and want to live in a state without religion and don't want to even hear "God" uttered by anyone. That doesn't sound like freedom to me; that's what I call a Burger King state - having it your way. Can't we all just get along?

I thought the purpose of the Free State was an effort to return to a Constitutional form of government since there is no other way to get the current system "fixed" by any other proposed means. Our Constitution isn't perfect, but it isn't the problem either. It's the people who have been running, and ruining this country for the past two centuries that are the problem. When Benjamen Franklin was asked what had been wrought replied, "A Republic, if you can keep it." Obviously, we haven't kept it. The question is, can we get it back? The freedoms we need to be concerned with are life, liberty and property.

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"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."
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SnowDog

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Re:Problems with the Constitution
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2002, 08:43:01 am »

I agree.

Fringe ideas, as justifiable as they can be worded, will not endear our endeavor to the American People, nor to others whom would support our cause. We need to concentrate solely on broad libertarian goals. We need to choose our battle to be one that we can win.
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percy, aka tntsmum

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Re:Problems with the Constitution
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2002, 04:08:23 pm »


First of all I gather that most people here are either Libertarians or have libertarian inclinations. But, I see a lot of people who want a "Free State" so they can do whatever they want; using drugs, running around naked, arming their SUVs with rocket launchers, etc. That leans towards anarchy. Second, there seems to be a lot of atheists who don't like Christians and want to live in a state without religion and don't want to even hear "God" uttered by anyone. That doesn't sound like freedom to me; that's what I call a Burger King state - having it your way. Can't we all just get along?

This has been a great concern of mine. In my mind there is a difference between wanting to establish a free state where people can live in harmony, with individual liberties intact, where noone is forced to support anyone else; and ranting and drooling at the mouth in anticipation of free-basing heroin in open and standing on your front lawn with your RPG launcher looking for government aircraft. I've been hearing an aweful lot of the latter. I've also watched as anyone who dares voice an opinion with a Christian slant be routinely torpedoed. It doesn't even matter if that opinion is threatening anyone elses liberties or not.

We all get that one should be able to use the drug of their choice as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone elses rights. We all get that individual citizens should have the right to arm themselves without jumping through hoops set up by the government. I don't think it's necessary to constantly resort to hyperbole and vitriole to make these points.
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bud

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Re:Problems with the Constitution
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2002, 07:05:51 pm »

Beware of legalized prior restrains.  Hundreds and hundreds of laws and rules and regulations aimed at arresting and punishing people for what they "might" do.
That's a big part of what got us into the mess we face in the US today.  For every "crime" prevented by the "idea police" you will need to maintain this tyranny of the majority
there will be hundreds or thousands of innocent people robbed of their rights and freedom by the state.  We'll be right back to where we are now.  Maybe we need a dozen or more "free states", one for each special interest group that wants everybody to do everything their way. They won't all be real free states, of course. Libertarians? Yeah, sure.
I guess I'll have to wait and see what the "free state" actually turns out to be before I commit to permanently living there.   I think we need a LOT of real libertarians, cause a lot of the people on this forum don't quite get it yet.
Maybe that comes from decades and lifetimes of being manipulated and controlled by Big Brother.  If you don't know better, what else can you expect.
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Cowboy

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Re:Problems with the Constitution
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2002, 08:30:11 pm »

 One of the many 'first' things to do, is educate people about Jury Nullification.
 Everyone charged under an UnConsitutional Law, needs to insist on a Jury Trial.
 Don't keep re-electing incumbent Prosecutors and Judges.
 Only elect honest Constitutional Sheriffs who will only enforce Constitutional Laws, and will be willing to investigate and present for Prosecution of UnConstitutional actions by elected Officials.
 Impeach all those who dishonor their Oath of Office.

 Note that most of these activities can be started now, in your current State, just for practice.
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Zxcv

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Re:Problems with the Constitution
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2002, 02:49:34 pm »

It's understandable that some folks talk about "using drugs, running around naked, arming their SUVs with rocket launchers, etc."  It's understandable to be mad, considering how this country has gone down the toilet. Let's not get too concerned about scaring off others when such sentiments are made. Anyone who joins this movement will have to have tougher skin than that, because it won't be easy when we go into our state.

On the other hand, the wild ones have to be patient. It took a while to get us into this statist sh*thole where we are now, and it will take a while to dig us back out. We have to be in this for the long haul, folks.

I am on the libertarian purist end of the spectrum, but I understand it takes time and experience to get there (if not a little insanity ;) ). I don't aim to piss off others who haven't got quite to where I am on the spectrum, that is pointless. Especially Christian-bashing, that just has to stop. I used to do that when I was younger but I finally wised up (many of my friends now are quite religious even though I'm not). We will probably be going into a state that has a lot of conservative Christians, and FSP'ers who make a habit of bashing them certainly ought to be taken behind the woodshed...
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Dave Mincin

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Re:Problems with the Constitution
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2002, 01:57:20 pm »

Halo,

Libertarians?  No, believe we are a group of people who believe as the founding fathers...that government must be limited, so the individual has the opportunity to reach his full potential!

A 'free state' is not a licience to lie, cheat, and steal, but about limiting government interference in your personal affairs.  Sex, drugs, and rock and roll may be fine for awhile, but it's not the real world.  It's not the governments job to establish your morality.

Hey....I am a Christian and I'm here!  If you don't like me because of it  "Oh Well" not my problem!

The founding fathers understood the potential evil of government, thats why they did there best to limit it.  Simpy stated less government .....less evil.

Believe it would benefit all to spend a little time reading and learning about those incredible people!
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Wild Pegasus

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Re:Problems with the Constitution
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2002, 12:16:24 am »

The main problem with the Constitution was outlined perfectly by Lysander Spooner, a 19th century anarchist.

http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/NoTreason/NoTreason.html

- Josh
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