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Author Topic: The case for New Hampshire  (Read 55605 times)

freedomroad

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2003, 06:30:29 pm »

Statists not wanting to actually live in New Hampshire could easily stay in Boston, as has been suggested,

However, statists are already moving into NH from Boston.  They are moving to NH for less expensive homes (although they are still expensive) and no sales tax.  Many of these MA statists still work in MA so they still have to pay state income tax.  This process was started a long time ago but keeps picking up speed.
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and I feel the same could be said of statists in the Denver and Boulder areas with regard to Wyoming.  They could live in Colorado and have their statist paradise there, but still take advantage of the various advantages to be had in short jaunts into free country.  Some in nearby cities in Montana and Utah might do the same as well.
 Many people from Utah already go to Wyoming to make use of its freedoms.  Certainly, as the Salt Lake City area is expected to grow by 90% in the next 25 years this will continue.  In fact, the Salt Lake City area might move 5 or so miles closer to WY, at the same time (still close to an 1 1/2 away, though).

However, I do find the http://www.lpnh.org/why-nh.htm page to be very nice.  However, all of the data, speadsheets, even taxes and less restrictive laws (WY is quite a bit less restrictive than NH) still favor WY.  WY even has move variety in its climate.  WY is also warmer and much closer to the center of the country.  Of course, the population and expense of election factors blow NH out of the water.  Soon, NH will have the 2nd highest population and the most expensive elections.  NH's house districts get bigger each time the census is taken and are expected to be even bigger after the next census.  Some of the districts already have over 20,000 people.  No to mention that the border state of VT is ranked the 3rd most statist state in the country.  On top of that, the state below NH, MA, has a national reputation for being one of the highest taxing states in the country and 1/4 of NH's house is made up of people from MA.  The pro-tax movements are gaining speed in NH as I write this.

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Michelle

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2003, 08:04:49 am »

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However, statists are already moving into NH from Boston.  
FreedomRoad, what proof do you have that these are "statists" moving in? What proof do you have that they are having a negative impact on NH politics and long-term history of independence, small government, and low taxes? I keep seeing people presenting this assumption as true, but nobody backing it up with facts.

<<The pro-tax movements are gaining speed in NH as I write this.>>

How do you figure that? If anything, the complete opposite is true!
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Zxcv

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2003, 05:43:21 am »

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Suppose you could make a weak case for VT, but other than the FSP'er, I know of no one who has moved, or committed to move, to a state because of the political climate.
I'm not worried about people who move for political reasons. I'm worried about people who move for jobs, who happen to be statists! It's undeniable this is something to be concerned about. Whether it's actually NH's or any other state's downfall is another point; like Michelle I think we ought to investigate that point some.

The problem is that people look at high job forecasts as "the more the merrier", but I think you can have too much of a good thing. We need ideally, enough jobs to employ 20,000 FSPers, and no more! We don't want those extra jobs sucking statists in. To me it looks like ID, NH and MT have too many jobs! It will be no help if NH's 105,000 projected jobs employs 20,000 FSPers and 85,000 statists.
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BillG

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2003, 10:00:31 pm »

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I'm not worried about people who move for political reasons. I'm worried about people who move for jobs, who happen to be statists!


My experience having moved into NH from MA 7 years ago is that most people move for a better "quality of life" in NH but continue to work in MA becuase there are many more high paying jobs.

"quality of life" means many different things to different people - better place to raise a family, more open space/less congestion, better housing, better recreational opportunities, etc.

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Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2003, 11:47:48 am »

Zxcv, your concern is well received.  Somehow I don't see jobs as a negitive!  The fact is, I believe so strongly in our ultimate sucess in NH, that if I was assured of employment I would be packing my bags today.   Who says those additional 85,000 projected jobs need be filled by statists?

Perhaps a good reason for the fsp or a similiar organization to continue to spread the word, on a national level, long past the time we reach 20,000.  In that case I see no reason why a majority of the 85,000 additional job couldn't be filled by freedom loving people like yourself.

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Zxcv

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2003, 11:14:13 pm »

Well, those jobs will be filled by people who come looking for them. Employers don't ask prospective employees if they are statists or not.

One example I can think of that might be indicative is Idaho. As you know, Idaho has developed a somewhat unsavory reputation in the press. For whatever reason, the press likes to talk about all the racists and nuts in Idaho, so people think it's that way when it probably is no worse than any other place (my only run-in with a racist was in progressive downtown Portland, Oregon, a guy who didn't appreciate my interracial marriage).

But this very same unsavory reputation may be a factor preserving Idaho's freedom, which is about as high as it gets in this country. Statists (on the leftist side, anyway) just don't want to move there, even if there are a lot of jobs.

Hmmm, now I've convinced myself that a lot of jobs is not necessarily such a problem - in Idaho, anyway. But we do still need disincentives to keep statists from immigrating. My preference is to get into a state where we can put those disincentives in place; then when the economy ramps up (as a result of our freeing it), these other disincentives will hold the statists off.
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Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #81 on: March 10, 2003, 11:06:53 pm »

Low taxes and little in the way of social services should keep most statists away.  At least those looking for a free ride from the government.

A recent article by Chris Edwards "Holding The Line on State Taxes" (Mr. Edwards is The Director of Fiscal Policy at the Cato Institute) referring to the period 1980-2000 he wrote, "New Hampshire is notable as the lowest-tax state in the country and its 117 percent real income growth during the period."

Without jobs many of the younger folks, especially those with children will find much difficulity in making the move.  With all do respect taking care of your family is even more important that the FSP.
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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #82 on: March 11, 2003, 12:13:41 pm »

Low taxes don't keep statists away. They don't want to pay them more than anyone else does. They want others to pay them. Statists would be repelled by a flat tax, but attracted by a so-called "progressive" tax.

Here's another thing from Cato:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa454.pdf

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New Hampshire
Jeanne Shaheen, Democrat Legislature: Republican
Took Office: 1/97
Grade: D
Fiscal Performance Data
0.3% Average Annual Change in Real per Capita Direct General Spending through 2000
3.5% Average Annual Change in Direct General Spending per $1,000 Personal Income through 2000
0.4% Average Annual Recommended Change in Real per Capita General Fund Spending through 2003
-9.6% Average Annual Change in General Fund Spending per $1,000 Personal Income 2000-2002
9.88% Average Annual Change in Real per Capita Tax Revenue through 2000
13.4% Average Annual Change in Tax Revenue per $1,000 Personal Income through 2000
14.87% Average Annual Recommended Tax Changes as % of Prior Year’s Spending through 2003
2.97% Average Annual Recommended Change in General Fund Revenue per $1,000 Personal Income through 2003
2.49% Average Annual Change in Real per Capita General Fund Revenue 2000-2002
0 Change in Top Personal Income Tax Rate, proposed and/or enacted (% points)
-3.5 Change in Top Corporate Income Tax Rate, proposed and/or enacted (% points)
7 2002 Combined Top Income Tax Rates, personal plus corporate (*0.5)
2.5 Change in Sales Tax Rate, proposed and/or enacted (% points)
0 Change in Gas Tax Rate, proposed and/or enacted (cents per gallon)
37 Change in Cigarette Tax Rate, proposed and/or enacted (cents per pack)
1 Internet Tax (1=oppose; 0=support)

New Hampshire has long been the one
small-government foothold in the Northeast,
but that competitive edge has been under
assault as state lawmakers, with the encouragement
of the state supreme court, have
tried to enact a state income tax. New
Hampshire is the only state in the nation that
has neither a personal income tax nor a sales
tax. But the supreme court has ruled that
New Hampshire’s property tax system is constitutionally
flawed. Into this high-voltage
debate over school financing and taxes
arrived the first Democratic governor in
decades, Jeanne Shaheen. First elected in
1996, Shaheen easily won two reelections. In
2000, she refused to take the anti-income tax
pledge, which almost all successful candidates
have taken in the past, and which she
had signed in her first two runs. She won
reelection narrowly anyway. Shaheen has
been described as "Governor Betty Crocker"
for her penchant for moderation and compromise.
But the reality is that Shaheen has
dramatically increased the size of state government.
In fact, her first three budgets
allowed expenditures to rise substantially
faster than personal income growth. Her
Advancing Better Classrooms plan increased
kindergarten aid by 50 percent. She often
speaks of improving schools but is opposed
to real reforms. She vetoed a teacher tenure
reform bill and a limited voucher pilot program.
The Wall Street Journal has described
New Hampshire residents as "taxaphobic,"
but Shaheen isn’t. She signed a statewide
property tax measure, proposed to raise the
corporate income tax, and hiked the cigarette
tax. She has tried several times to contrive a
taxing scheme that would meet the court’s
approval and gain acceptance from the
Republicans in the legislature. That hasn’t
happened. She appointed a commission to
study New Hampshire taxes, which recom-mended
new taxes, including an income tax.
She proposed a 2.5 percent state sales tax, but
that was also rejected by the legislature. The
funding problem was finally resolved by
enacting a statewide property tax, and no
income or sales tax. That solution - probably
the best possible outcome under the circum-stances -
was arrived at in spite of Shaheen,
not as a result of her leadership. Shaheen has
a reputation, cultivated by the press, as a fiscal
conservative. But it is hard to reconcile
that with her actual big-budget and high-tax
policies during her three terms in office.
The more recent trends are not good.

I think the problem there in NH is that the teachers' union is powerful, with monopoly bargaining power and forced union dues. The NEA also has 29,000 members, second highest in our 10 states. So it will be very hard to keep them from raising NH's traditionally low taxes, it seems. FSP would have its hands full just holding the line. But it's true, holding the line would itself be pretty impressive, since the tax line is so low at this point.

Question is, given the recent trends, could we get into the state and help out, before the statists managed to boost taxes significantly?
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Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #83 on: March 11, 2003, 01:24:51 pm »

Ahh...Zxcv my friend I somehow knew I would be hearing from you!

I have read your post with some concern; however your information is a bit dated.  Mine is from a newpaper article dated 3/8/2003.  Did not the Dem's run on a income tax platform and get their butts kicked in the most recent election.   Sure I agree person freedom and liberty is under assault in NH, but I could say the same about the entire country and be correct too.  The folks in NH are under assault, but we are under assaut everwhere.  Think all things considered they are fighting the good fight, and we have not arrived yet to lend a hand.

Are we not back to the theory of "a statist under ever bed?"  NH has not income tax period, not progressive or flat.  Is that not a plus?   Personally I favor a consumption tax as the fairest tax.  In spite of the influx of statist that you continue to attribute to NH it remains the lowest taxed state in America. (state and local).  If all these statist keep coming how is that possible?

I would share your concern with the teachers unions in NH, but let us be realistic, wherever we land the teachers will be a problem.  Since I believe one of our top priorities should be to dismantle the state run education system, do you really believe that state teachers who depend on the state for their pay check will not fight us tooth and nail in any state?  Union or not they will be a problem.

NH has done a grand job of holding the tax line without us, imagine what they could do with our help!

>>Question is, given the recent trends, could we get into >>the state and help out, before the statists managed to >>boost taxes significantly

First I am not sure you have proven recent trends regarding NH, at least no more than recent trends all over the country.  I mean look, read the papers how many states are threatening to raise taxes, have heard little on NH about not having enough to pay her bills.  Perhaps it is because she has less bills to pay.  What a problem to have!

So my answer to your question is yes!  I would go one step further, lets start getting there right after the election.  Give the future job projections I feel we could all find a job, so why wait until we have 20.000 members?  Why wait 5 to 7 years?  Why wait until the statist show up at the door of your favorite state?

Dave
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Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #84 on: March 11, 2003, 01:33:28 pm »

Oops!  Forgot Governer Jeanne Shaheen is not longer governor!  Guess they didn't much care for her program up NH way!
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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #85 on: March 11, 2003, 02:53:31 pm »

I thought my information was more recent than yours, Dave. Yours was from an article quoting a study 1980-2000, mine from a study 2000-2002. Or am I missing something?

Did the pro-tax folks get their butts kicked? I'm very happy to hear it. Maybe more details about that would be nice, or some links to articles.

Was Shaheen voted out or term-limited out?

Of course the teacher's union will fight us everywhere; that's not the point. The point is, do they have the tools and the numbers to do it? NH looks shaky in that respect.

So what's the situation with the boosted property tax? Any prospects to roll that back?
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Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #86 on: March 11, 2003, 05:14:21 pm »

>>>I thought my information was more recent than yours, Dave. Yours was from an article quoting a study 1980-2000, mine from a study 2000-2002. Or am I missing something?<<< :

I'll give you that one :)

Not being a resident of NH I hesitate to say to much about the current situtation, not following it on a daily basis, however do know the Dem. candidate in the last election was soundly defeated on a platform of a state income tax, and the Rep. hold large majorities in both houses.

Also that the NH Libertarians have a number of people running for office as we speak, and that's a start.

Perhaps someone with first hand knowledge could fill you in on the current property tax situation.

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JasonPSorens

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #87 on: March 11, 2003, 05:19:53 pm »

Note that when we say that New Hampshire does not have an income tax, we mean only that it does not have a tax on personal income.  It does have taxes on business income.  Wyoming would be an example of a state that does not have income taxation of any kind.  Still, NH's overall tax burden is lower than that of any other state in the country (with the arguable exceptions of Alaska and South Dakota, depending on how you count).  But since most of the tax burden is carried through rather high property taxes, you could certainly argue that their tax structure is flawed, since capitation and consumption taxes are in theory superior to property & income taxes.  Wyoming, for example, has medium property taxes, a low sales tax, and severance taxes on mining.
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Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #88 on: March 11, 2003, 06:03:07 pm »

I wonder?  Generally low taxes mean more economic growth, and more jobs, but if that was always true what is the problem with WY and SD?

Depending on how you count?  Yes that is one of my main concerns.  The statistics say one thing, but the people say another with their feet.  The statistics said my beloved Steelers would be in the Super Bowl too!  But guess what?

NH continues one of the most free, has one of the best job outlooks, and is one of the most beautiful of the candidate states, so the choice for me is pretty easy.  
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JasonPSorens

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #89 on: March 11, 2003, 06:56:46 pm »

SD's job outlook is actually quite robust.  It is forecast to create as many jobs as Delaware, which is a somewhat larger state.

I think the reason for WY's poor job growth has to do with two things: natural resource dependence (what economists call the "Dutch disease") and isolation from major markets.  If WY had a major river or port access, its economy would have done much better in the past - and its population might be beyond our range by now. ;)
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