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Author Topic: The case for New Hampshire  (Read 54102 times)

JasonPSorens

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #165 on: March 24, 2003, 08:59:29 am »

Sometimes, I think that the New Hampshire contingent is going to win this whole vote thanks in part to their organization and efforts, (although I have greater wishes on Wyoming still).  Let it be said, however, if the FSP fails to get 20,000 (I shudder at the thought),  or if the FSP chooses another state,  I think NH will still be remembered by hundreds of people as a place they will want to move to, thanks in part to the good efforts of all the friendly libertarians in New Hampshire!

There's no doubt that the NH libertarians have done more for the FSP than libertarians from any other state (not just candidate states), and for that we'll all be grateful for years to come, no matter where we end up.
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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #166 on: March 24, 2003, 02:50:43 pm »

Sometimes, I think that the New Hampshire contingent is going to win this whole vote thanks in part to their organization and efforts, (although I have greater wishes on Wyoming still).  Let it be said, however, if the FSP fails to get 20,000 (I shudder at the thought),  or if the FSP chooses another state,  I think NH will still be remembered by hundreds of people as a place they will want to move to, thanks in part to the good efforts of all the friendly libertarians in New Hampshire!

There's no doubt that the NH libertarians have done more for the FSP than libertarians from any other state (not just candidate states), and for that we'll all be grateful for years to come, no matter where we end up.

Yes, from what I've read on here the last few days, if is very obvious that the NH people have worked any tails they may have had clear off to provide information for this culling process.  There is no doubt that they care passionately about the successful outcome of this project.  Are they biased?  Sure, it's their home.  But, they use solid information to sway opinion, and that is worth consideration.

However, I agree with exitus that WY would be my first choice!
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George Reich

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #167 on: March 24, 2003, 03:35:43 pm »

Yes, from what I've read on here the last few days, if is very obvious that the NH people have worked any tails they may have had clear off to provide information for this culling process.  There is no doubt that they care passionately about the successful outcome of this project.  Are they biased?  Sure, it's their home

Many of the pro-NH posters to this thread are not New Hampshire residents.
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Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #168 on: March 24, 2003, 04:06:58 pm »

I'm one of those NH boosters who is not a resident.

I have looked at the various threads, and statistical data, think Jason and the board, and the people putting the numbers together have really done and incredible job, and I sincerely believe in the mission of the FSP.

Having grown up in the city and moving to a small town I have a pretty good idea what it takes to become a part of that town.  Geez it's hard, you are considered an outsider, everyone knows everyone, went to the same school, etc.

Some of the states really look good on paper, but wow if you don't have a history in small town America, it's really hard.  Like years to just establish credibility, and I just don't see any people from those states standing up and saying come!

In NH they are organizing running canidates.  Seems to me that initially we are going to need natives to run for office, need a local organization.  Not saying everyone should run and join the NHLP, that's a personal choice, but if we have local canidates to support initially we will be so much further down the road than having to start from scratch.

Wouldn't it be nice to have an instant friend when you got to town?  Maybe even a local!  Have an organization you could begin helping like day one?

Perhaps it's a credit to the folks up there, but me, an outsider, have been made to feel I already have a bunch of friends in NH.

So foolish old man I may be, I want to go and fight for freedom were my friends are!

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Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #169 on: March 28, 2003, 06:18:25 pm »

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Zxcv

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #170 on: March 28, 2003, 07:21:15 pm »

It's nice to see a vigorous party and a newsletter that indicates it.

However, I have a little problem with this item, from it:
Quote
There is nothing unethical about opting out of all nine of the other states - NH is for many reasons the best choice for the project, and offers the best chance for its success.

Unethical? Perhaps not. But it sure ain't working within the spirit of FSP, which intended, after all, to move 20,000 people to a chosen state (especially in a large state like NH, where we will need every new body we can scrape up, this makes no sense). We've got a lot of people willing to uproot themselves and move to another state. People who opt out of all but the state they are already living in, demonstrate a lack of commitment, at the very least. Personally, I wish Jason had set it up so that you could opt out of no more than 5 states, so we would be filtering these lightweights out.

The passage above somewhat reminds me of the people who encourage others to go down and make sure they apply for all their welfare "rights".
« Last Edit: March 28, 2003, 07:24:06 pm by Zxcv »
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Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #171 on: March 28, 2003, 07:57:48 pm »

Hmm...See something positive and look for something negative...Isn't that the tried and true method of the failure of the libertarian movement?

Agree that opting out of all states but your favorite is a voliation of the spirit of the FSP, but being negative will get us now where!

All the states with the glowing numbers have few FSP people and little action!

Nit pick all you want, but the fact is the only canditate state that is working towards freedom, supporting the FSP with action is NH!



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exitus

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #172 on: March 29, 2003, 12:54:44 am »

Hmm...See something positive and look for something negative...Isn't that the tried and true method of the failure of the libertarian movement?

I see negativity coming out of two extremes:


--
  • On the other hand, you have the LP members in Idaho stating that they don't need the FSP! (see quote presented on this forum by RobertH on March 07, 2003 )
________________________________________________

And here's the last memorable time the topic of this strategy of "rigging the vote" was discussed:

 Moving To A Candidate State Before FSP Selects A Specific State..._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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Zxcv

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #173 on: March 29, 2003, 01:48:27 am »

An official request by Jason and others on the committee, to George Reich requesting he withdraw that statement, would probably not be a bad thing.

Out of a very impressive newsletter, and enthusiastic words of welcome by LPNH to FSP, that is the one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb. George really ought to re-think that. Success on his part implementing that strategy would truly be a Pyrrhic victory. FSP might be torn apart by it; or at least, NH would not get the 20,000 they need, because a large portion of FSP members might bail.

Even if most did keep their commitment and moved to NH, they might not make the best activists. Probably wouldn't join the LPNH, either!
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Robert H.

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #174 on: March 29, 2003, 02:19:56 am »

Quote
On one hand, you have the LPNH announcing that "There is nothing unethical about opting out of all nine of the other states [but choosing to stay in] NH." (http://www.lpnh.org/liblines/LibLines-JanFeb-2003.htm)

There is some room for maneuvering here by saying that opting out of a state does not necessarily mean that one is absolutely refusing to move to that state...

However...I also note the following from that same source article:

Quote
We must act now before this opportunity is lost forever. We need to make sure that when the vote is taken, New Hampshire comes out on top...

Joining the Free State Project doesn't cost anything and does not mean making a commitment to move away from NH. Members are free to "opt out" of any and all states that they reserve the right not to relocate to...

At its January meeting, the LPNH executive board voted unanimously to endorse the Free State Project. Read the press release here <http://www.lpnh.org/pr/pr011703.htm>. The board created a "Welcome to the Granite State" committee which is working very hard toward bringing the FSP here to New Hampshire. But we need your help. We need you to join the project and we need you to convince your friends, neighbors and coworkers to join the project. And we need you to vote for NH. Don't procrastinate any longer. Go to FreeStateProject.org <http://www.FreeStateProject.org> and sign up today. Your freedom depends on it!

You can join the FSP and opt out of various states, up to and including every state but the one in which you live, and that is perfectly acceptable (I've opted out of two states myself).  However, joining the FSP and opting out of some states is one thing, but joining the FSP and opting out of every state but your own, knowing that the only reason you join is to vote for your state (with no intention of considering any other) is quite another thing.  In the final analysis, you are not voting for which state you think is best for all of us, you are voting for which state you feel is best for all the rest of us with no committment or risk on your own part.  As for you, you're already in the place you feel is best for you and you don't intend to leave.

Does the article encourage folks to find out what the FSP is really all about?
Does the article encourage folks to investigate the state question for themselves and determine which is best for liberty?
Does the article encourage folks to find out who else is in the FSP, and thus get an idea of who all they are inviting to come to their state?
Does the article encourage folks to join these discussions and debates and find out what all the FSP has in mind once it reaches a state, or how it might go about its work?

No.  It encourages folks to join the FSP for the sole purpose of voting for New Hampshire.  That appears to be the extent of its vision.

And consider how it might affect the vote in other ways.  Maybe the people you recruit via this method are not sufficient enough to sway the FSP to New Hampshire, but they might be enough to skew which state does win because they're likely to put the other nine states in a devil-may-care order.

Ideally, we need people who care about what order all of the states should rightly appear in because none of us can be guaranteed that the one we think is best will win.  And this implies a need for people who are informed about the various merits and problems in each of these states; people who can cast a thoughtful, reasoned vote about how the states rank in terms of which are best for liberty.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2003, 07:25:25 am by RobertH »
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George Reich

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #175 on: March 29, 2003, 08:13:39 pm »

If the organization really had it together, they would identify the majority of seats most easily won and persuade their people to move there rather than in those hopeless districts. Also to move "just enough" into districts so that other Free Staters can move to where they are needed to put a movement over the top.

We are working on a list of recommended districts for in-migration and hope to make it public by the end of April.  ;)
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Karl

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #176 on: March 30, 2003, 04:41:41 pm »

FSP members must be willing to compromise on the job availability factor.  NH is the only state that meets that  compromise.  Even with NH's main downsides -- higher population and the alleged "creeping statism" from the borders of neighboring states are outweighed by its ability to support FSP members' financial viability.  Personal financial viability is the most important factor of all

Some points of elaboration:

1.  Only New Hampshire and Delaware are near major metro areas can support full variety of the career fields of many FSP members.  It will be hard enough competing with 20,000 other well-educated FSP members and natives in NH -- how can this be done in Wyoming?  I don’t think it can.

2.  Some have suggested that we change careers.  What does a computer programmer or electrical engineer or other specialists, who have invested years of their lives in their education and career experience change careers to?  Clearly many will be forced to branch out from their specialties, but it is not reasonable to expect they become electricians, geologists, ranchers and rodeo clowns.  Things aren't yet THAT BAD in the rest of the country.  And we need to convince 17,000 people that it is worth it.

3.  The first 3,000 FSP members are the hard-core; many are the so-called "broken glass eaters".  Most individuals who hang out in libertarian circles are already aware of FSP; those who are willing have already joined.  What's left are 17,000 people who aren't "broken glass eaters".  They're the people who need more convincing.  They're the people who need a decent job to support their family.  They're the ones who aren't willing to make the same sacrifice that the first 3,000 members are.  If the FSP membership is to approach anything near 20,000, we must recognize this fact and compromise.  Only NH fits the bill.  We’re much too focused on statistics.  We’re human beings, not computers!

4.  I have read the concerns over LPNH's tactic of signing up NH-only members.  But when LPID says they don't want us, and LPWY remains silent, I am encouraged by LPNH's gusto.  Flawed though they may be, I look forward to getting plugged into LPNH's team of activists after the move, and helping them improve.

5.  I have heard several times that FSP members will create jobs.  This is true.  But in the first five or ten years, these will be primarily low-paid service jobs.  Some members may be forced to get two jobs, or take a severe cut in their standard of living.  This will dishearten many members, and will eliminate the time they could otherwise use for activism.  They'll quit FSP after a few years.  It will happen even to many of the people who consider themselves hard core today.  The few higher-paying jobs that exist require specialized training that is too costly and too time-consuming to learn for most people.
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George Reich

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #177 on: March 30, 2003, 10:19:49 pm »

I look forward to getting plugged into LPNH's team of activists after the move, and helping them improve.

Karl, why wait until after the move? We need your help with our Tax Day Outreach. Please see this thread if you are able and willing to help:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1522

 :-*
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