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Author Topic: Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East  (Read 19678 times)

ZionCurtain

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2002, 11:48:08 am »

It's not going to happen.
Care to elaborate more?  :D
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2002, 09:10:22 am »

We're not going to break up the FSP. <shrug>
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Eddie_Bradford

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2002, 12:40:38 pm »

Yeah and besides that these two choices are super crappy anyway.
-E
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2002, 01:04:38 pm »

Yeah and besides that these two choices are super crappy anyway.
-E
Ok, but Delaware and NH are Ultra crappy. Stick that in your pipe.
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wolf_tracker

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2002, 03:03:10 pm »

Yeah and besides that these two choices are super crappy anyway.
-E

neither are as bad as deleware is

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NHArticleTen

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2002, 04:02:15 pm »

Personally, we think allowing the possibility for more than one "target state" is a very good idea and it sure isn't going to "hurt" the movement...  We must remember that no matter what state or states we choose...a certain percentage of our "members" are not going to accept that particular area or areas and will subsequently...not relocate with us...This particular subject reflects some of the real "issues" that serve not only to divide our members...but members of society as a whole...We have confidence that the further we get in this project...the better we will be able to work together and select a state or states to relocate to...Thanks, Rob and Beth Jacobs - Cincinnati Paraflight,Inc. - www.cincinnatiparaflight.com

Robert H.

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2002, 04:19:35 pm »

Welcome to the forum, Rob and Beth.   :)

For what it's worth, I agree with your comments on the nature of the dispute.

Ultimately, I expect the issue will be resolved by one faction simply outnumbering the other and winning the state vote.  The disputes over population, urbanization, proximity to New York and DC, borders and ports, etc., are, at their core, conceptual disagreements: the most difficult of all to address (outside of religious beliefs, that is).  

That's just one opinion though.   ;)

Zxcv

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2002, 04:51:51 pm »

Quote
And in case of a crisis, either movement could fall back on the other without having to start all over again.
This is the key point.

As I mentioned earlier, we could work on our one state, and when that looks viable, another project would naturally start on the other end of the country.

You are suggesting the reverse - start two projects and if one of them fail, the "survivors" can then concentrate on the remaining viable state.

I think the first way is the more prudent.

Let's just imagine for a moment that Wyoming gets chosen. People start moving there, including some from the East who would have preferred an eastern state but...

Wow, what a flashback!

When I wrote the above I just remembered something from my past. I was working on a statewide political campaign, and some of what I did was delivering printed material down to Roseburg, Oregon. The campaign had imported someone from the east coast to run the campaign down there.

I remembered having the strong opinion that was a big mistake! It was clear that easterner had no clue what life was about in a town like Roseburg, which is one of the timber-dependent communities around here.

Maybe there is something to this two-state idea.

Still, I think it makes sense to do the 2nd state a few years later than the first. We really have to concentrate on our first state. And maybe we should do our best to get leaders for the local groups from among the population already in the state, so we don't come off as ignoramuses when we get there.
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Racer X

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2002, 05:18:05 pm »

We're not going to break up the FSP. <shrug>

Ha!  I knew Jason wasn't a secessionist ! ;D


Racer X
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mtPete

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2002, 01:39:54 am »

This problem we are having here is probebly something that will not be resovled. It is just an extension of the age old WY vs VT, rural vs urban, South vs. North, plantationers vs merchants battle that has divided this country since the American revolution.

Honestly, if this nation is to ever live free the two sides are going to have to either understand and leave each other alone, or break up the union. Not to say that is the answer for the FSP. In theory we should be of the same ideological mind concerning liberty, so this cultural/ideological divide shouldn't be as much of an issue. But who knows.
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Mark

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2002, 02:31:32 pm »

perhaps when the "there can be only one" state is chosen (or two as in this thread) there can be a Free County Project stated in each of the other states (or for that matter every state). Personally I wouldn't like to see Wyoming (currntly my fav - and I'm an easterner) chosen and then people move there from Montana or the Dakotas. Activists should stay there and organize a strong grassroots movement that could create a "Western Bloc" as well as take in people that would only move there from some of the hopeless case states.


Maybe Joe could answer this: would 200, 500, 1000 or even 2000 immigrants from inside your state who moved from neighboring counties help your local liberty movement?

I think in San Fransico they had a non-binding resolution where they asked if people wanted to move out of the area if taxes are raised. I think the response was something like 80% in moving to a new county.

Many people simply won't move at all. Some would move but only on an east/west basis (I could move easily to Vermont right now but will move to any western bloc state). A second or even multiple choices shouldn't be seen as destructive to the "main goal". The "main" FSP state will be chosen and run by those people who would have supported the "there can be only be one" state any way. I think.  :P
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Mark

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2002, 01:13:59 am »

Quote
Maybe Joe could answer this: would 200, 500, 1000 or even 2000 immigrants from inside your state who moved from neighboring counties help your local liberty movement?
How much "help" are you talking about? Enough to actually effect adequate change for liberty as our founders intended -- at least to the extent possible at the local city and county level (which is far more than most here understand).

Answer: For this county's population of 6,000 Americans...
We would need 2,000 libertarian immigrants (a quarter won't vote, a quarter will vote against any particular initiative (the gunnies against the druggies, the druggies against small business, the yuppies against the gunnies, ad infinitum). Result? maybe 1,000 voting for most of the libertarian initiatives or candidates.
One tenth of them need to be serious experience political "activists" of which several percent of FSP'ers qualify -- and one quarter of that 200 need to be officeholders and government department heads - see link below for details)

Number of FSP'ers needed to change local politics
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=365

Step by step plan to gain office and make changes
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=400

Is 20,000 Enough?
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=12;action=display;threadid=369



damn, you are a wise ass.    ;D
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Robert H.

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2002, 02:25:56 am »

A second or even multiple choices shouldn't be seen as destructive to the "main goal". The "main" FSP state will be chosen and run by those people who would have supported the "there can be only be one" state any way. I think.  :P

An excellent observation.

The state vote will go to those who hold the majority perspective on what is most important for the FSP to succeed.  If that majority is made up of those who want to be close to mega population centers (for whatever reason), then the chosen state will reflect this, as will the majority of focused activities taking place in that state following the move.  Of course, the same thing is true of those who prefer less populous, less population dense states.

The degree to which this will affect our activities will likely be determined by how we choose to proceed in general:  as a new political party, joining up with an existing party, etc.  It would affect us to the maximum extent as a new political party because it would involve the same group of people.  On the other hand, choosing an existing party would mitigate that majority influence somewhat depending on the mood of whatever organization it is that we join up with (as will the same individual libertarian issues that we disagree about now).

But I believe that the majority perspective in regard to what is most important for us to focus on in terms of urbanization in particular (the town/county/city debate) will be unchanged once we reach the chosen state.  If anything, it will probably get stronger.

In regard to number, theoretically-speaking, a second state would be quite viable, but personally, I wouldn't go past two.   :)

JasonPSorens

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2002, 09:17:32 am »

Mark, Joe has complained about your post.  Please don't call him a "wise ass."  I know it was probably a joke, but still.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

redbeard

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2002, 06:05:56 pm »

I'm for two states. The east is just too liberal. Any of the eastern candidate states are in close proximity to millions of liberals many of whom would be as adamant in keeping socialism healthy as we would be in destroying it. What I mean is, vote Wyoming!
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