Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Security Concerns  (Read 10788 times)

SandyPrice

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2003, 09:35:09 am »

Herbalist, let the government single us all out.  The more they show annoyance the better we will be shown to want our freedoms.  

Listen gal, I'm over 70 and am totally sick to death of the intrusive John Ashcroft and his data base being built around all Americans.  One of my dreams is to let it be known that the FSP will not fill out a long form during the year when the census is being sent out.  We could be a model for the rest of America.  Let them make headlines for us!!!

There are many ways we will have to work on to protect us from the federal government.  We must pay our federal taxes because this is where they will put the pressure.  We must not break any federal laws at all.  Where ever we land, the local laws must not be broken but we can change them after being elected to several key political positions.  There are ways to make these changes without breaking any law.  

We cannot be red necks in our attitudes.  
Logged

LeopardPM

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2248
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2003, 04:58:21 pm »

This may be our fatal flaw: I agree with you that we need to all obey the federal laws just like model citizens, BUT, you are talking about a bunch of libertarians here who routinely will try to find any crack or method to avoid: federal income taxes, state sales tax, employee taxes, etc....
Logged
nothing to say...

Adam Selene

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • I already shrugged. Where the hell are you?
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2003, 01:26:18 am »

However, that doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for the project!  In deference to my husband's concerns I don't think we'll be joining - but I do plan to support the project financially and move to the chosen state as soon as it's announced.

Herbalist, I think you have made a fine decision.

What is nice about the Free State Project is that it is attractive to two types of people, which are very much opposites. Those that would try to reform a system, and those that who would leave it.

I do not believe in political activism. What I do believe in is emmigration. Voting with you feet not your ballot. I have already done so once.

With the immigration of enough people to any destination -- prime movers and people dedicated to their freedom -- whatever"system" that exists there today well be like a sand castle against the rising tide.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2003, 01:27:20 am by Adam Selene »
Logged

MajesticLeo

  • FSP Participant
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • Am neither Dahlai nor Lama
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2003, 07:22:17 am »

I do not believe in political activism. What I do believe in is emmigration. Voting with you feet not your ballot. I have already done so once.

With the immigration of enough people to any destination -- prime movers and people dedicated to their freedom -- whatever"system" that exists there today well be like a sand castle against the rising tide.


Perhaps I am not understanding something here.  You don't believe in "political activism" or "voting with your ballot";  how is moving to a new area going to change the political climate if you aren't going to do anything to change it?  Do you think your presence alone will cause everyone else to suddenly change their minds and laws, even thought they don't have any idea what it is you believe?  (and how can they if you don't believe in political activism?)

Sounds confusing to me,  seems to me you have to at least vote for change if you expect any to take place. ???
Logged
I'm off to be the Wizard!!!!

Adam Selene

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • I already shrugged. Where the hell are you?
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2003, 01:21:41 pm »

It's not confusing at all, once you realize your slavery is based solely upon your sanction. All you need do is to remove your sanction.

Yes, I expect my simple presence, and that of others similar, will have more effect than reforming every law on the books. There are people who ask permission and their are people who realize no permission is required. Your slavery is in your mind.

Perhaps I can see this more clearly given my first business ambitions were in the crumbling Soviet Union. Or that I now live in a place where are many expatriates who just do, and deal with the squeeze as businessmen rather than citizen-subjects.

Reform is simply an alternative system of control; and is often counter-productive. Rather, the tighter the system squeezes, the more people that remove their sanction.

I support the Free State because I feel that if a large number of such people concentrated into an area, it could be a revolutionary economic experiment. No batteries required.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2003, 01:23:48 pm by Adam Selene »
Logged

MajesticLeo

  • FSP Participant
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • Am neither Dahlai nor Lama
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2003, 02:22:18 pm »

"Remove their sanction",  "no permission is required"; I can only assume you mean you will not be a "slave" to any system of government???   That means you don't intend to engage in any business requiring a license, drive an automobile on a public road with a license, won't pay taxes (which means you can't buy gas for your car anyway), will do anything you want without regard to anyone else?

Yes, I can see how the presence of someone like that could have an effect on the community, at least until the rest of us had to pay the cost of your confinement.
Logged
I'm off to be the Wizard!!!!

LeopardPM

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2248
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2003, 02:54:43 pm »

the 'slavery' is the force used without consent - ie: pay taxes, force licensing, draft, etc... the voting giving consent is true, but has nothing to due with the slavery itself... by not voting you are still a slave - but you have lost your will perhaps?
Logged
nothing to say...

Adam Selene

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • I already shrugged. Where the hell are you?
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2003, 03:37:05 pm »

MajesticLeo, if that is your definition living in freedom, then good luck to you. Until you loose this idealist vision, you'll never learn to live free.

I certainly don't see how you extrapolated "paying the squeeze as businessmen" into refusing to pay any taxes; so please don't put words into my mouth.

No, LeopardPM, slavery is not force used without consent. If I hit you, are you my slave? Slavery is a slave/master relationship. Once you realize you have no master, and owe no subservience, you are no longer a slave.

That there are still thugs in the world who would use force upon you is not relevant to the issue, and the notion that you can create a world in which thugs do not exist is idealistic nonsense.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2003, 03:42:33 pm by Adam Selene »
Logged

LeopardPM

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2248
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2003, 07:03:57 pm »

never said a thing about a world without thugs... or force...

I was trying to point out how voting or choosing to not vote does not make one any more or less free from the supposed 'slavery' of having a government legislate upon you and steal from you.  I continue to not make myself clear - forgive me.

Logged
nothing to say...

Adam Selene

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • I already shrugged. Where the hell are you?
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2003, 07:54:20 pm »

I was trying to point out how voting or choosing to not vote does not make one any more or less free from the supposed 'slavery' of having a government legislate upon you and steal from you.

The act of voting itself does not have any effect (unless you are extremely paranoid), but registering to vote does (obligations such as jury duty, and possible tax exposure).

However it was not a point I was making. The point I was making is that those that, for *any* reason, choose not to engage in certain types of political activism -- petition signing, party registration, voter registration, voting, joining FSP -- can still have large impact in the target state. In fact, a larger impact, IMHO, than solely their signature on a petition or ballot.

Now as to what reasons they has is purely their own, and will certainly vary. Whether you agree with them is not the point, it is a choice some people will make regardless.

Example, whether you believe signing a petition will get you an IRS audit, or on the TSA watch-list, I leave to your own paranoia.
Logged

Zack Bass

  • Guest
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2003, 08:23:44 pm »


Slavery is a slave/master relationship. Once you realize you have no master, and owe no subservience, you are no longer a slave.


Great.  Just let me get these manacles on you, and you can go back to your silly internal world of perceived Freedom.  Now bend over and I'll drive you home.

Logged

MajesticLeo

  • FSP Participant
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • Am neither Dahlai nor Lama
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2003, 08:25:04 pm »


I certainly don't see how you extrapolated "paying the squeeze as businessmen" into refusing to pay any taxes; so please don't put words into my mouth.



I never even considered that particular phrase, actually refusal to pay taxes seemed to proceed naturally from the idea of you don't intend to submit to any type of government influence (which is what I inferred you meant as a "Master")

Actually you never really say anything about how your presence, without any action on your part, will effect change.   Perhaps your expanded aura resulting from your enlightenment will cause spontaneous evolvement in the immediate area?   You keep saying you can have a "large impact" but never give a clue how this spontaneous impact will happen.  

Since I did not give you a definition of "living free" somehow I don't think you have much right to criticize my "Idealist Vision", especially since your vision seems so much more idealistic in that change will occur as if by magic just by your presence in the area.

Not that I am against that happening, I am just not so spiritually advanced as to be able to materially effect change in people and institutions by my mere presence.
Logged
I'm off to be the Wizard!!!!

Adam Selene

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • I already shrugged. Where the hell are you?
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2003, 08:38:21 pm »

I think I figured out where you got confused re: slavery.

In reply to the MajesticLeo's statement that "you have to at least vote for change if you expect any [change] to take place."

The notion that you must vote to affect your freedom is a slave petitioning his master for permission. This is not freedom. The most important place of change is not in the laws, but in the minds of individuals. Laws will follow, not lead, a movement towards freedom.

The best way for people to lose their slave mentality is to come in contact with individuals who already regard themselves as free, and act accordingly. And no, this does not mean trying to avoid completely the costs imposed by thugs, it means taking responsibility and dealing with each individually on a cost/consequence/alternative basis.
Logged

MajesticLeo

  • FSP Participant
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • Am neither Dahlai nor Lama
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2003, 09:07:39 pm »

I The most important place of change is not in the laws, but in the minds of individuals. Laws will follow, not lead, a movement towards freedom.

The best way for people to lose their slave mentality is to come in contact with individuals who already regard themselves as free, and act accordingly. And no, this does not mean trying to avoid completely the costs imposed by thugs, it means taking responsibility and dealing with each individually on a cost/consequence/alternative basis.


That is all very well, and sounds really pretty, but it doesn't say anything.  It is just meaningless circular rhetoric.  And besides how are you going to have this "movement toward freedom" without some kind of action to bring about the movement?   Or does movement not imply action?  Re-read Zack's post cause your intellectual freedom leads exactly there.   Just MNSHO of course.
Logged
I'm off to be the Wizard!!!!

Adam Selene

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • I already shrugged. Where the hell are you?
Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2003, 09:12:42 pm »

Perhaps your expanded aura resulting from your enlightenment will cause spontaneous evolvement in the immediate area?   You keep saying you can have a "large impact" but never give a clue how this spontaneous impact will happen.  

I have better things to do with my time than get into flame wars with someone who failed to read my posts.

However, Herbalist, there are still many ways to participate. Move to the target state, create jobs, donate money, finance venture startups, recruit other members, etc. IMHO this type of activism is worth 100x what your vote or name on a petition is worth.

How about I simply this into multiple choice for you.

Rank the following actions in order if impact.

1) Sign a petition
2) Cast a ballot
3) Donate 2% of your income to political candidate/causes
4) Spend 30% of your disposable income in a State
5) Buy real esate in the State (worth 5x your annual income)
6) Start a business in the state
7) Employ 100 other people in the State
8) Employ 10,000 people in the State

If I need give some examples; the spending power of tourists coming to Vegas has much more impact on sustaining Vegas's freedom with respect to gambling than does its voting constituency; or the potential flight of foreign deposits in maintaining Switzerland's banking privacy; etc.

Economics trumps politics. Politics is almost always reactionary.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up