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Author Topic: Security Concerns  (Read 10787 times)

Herbalist

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Security Concerns
« on: July 14, 2003, 10:54:28 am »

I am so committed to the principles of the Free State Project and am ready to sign up, but my husband has some concerns and I wondered if anybody else has, or if the topic has been given consideration already but I haven't found the thread...

It's just this --

My husband is concerned about the security of FSP individuals from the American Government.  He sees the potential of something like Ruby Ridge or Waco occuring on a much larger scale in the chosen state once the freedom-lovers move there.  He's also concerned about the time leading up to the move - will the government seek the FSP membership list for the purpose of things like singling us out for tax audits, increased personal surveillance, revoking/rejecting handgun permits, etc?  Why wouldn't the government employ hackers for the purpose of seeking that list and using the names on it for their own purposes?

I am interested to know what other list participants think.  Of course the FSP is entirely peaceful, but I'm not so sure the government would see things like that.

H, an earth mother
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SN Porc

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2003, 11:20:57 am »

I'd put the odds at about 100% that at least one or more government agency already has the list. There's no doubt we are a "subject of interest".

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Zack Bass

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2003, 11:28:30 am »


My husband is concerned about the security of FSP individuals from the American Government.  He sees the potential of something like Ruby Ridge or Waco occuring on a much larger scale in the chosen state once the freedom-lovers move there.


I can't see the Federal Government as caring much one way or another, as long as we stay far away from the Secession issue.  They'l crush any hint of Secession, since that could lead to a USSR-style meltdown.  Short of that, there's not much they'll care about.
The Feds will still be enforcing their own Laws, like drug trafficking and income tax, and we won't have to pay for that.  We're going to be changing Local & State Laws, which are the source of over 95% of our loss of Freedom.  It's always your Local Cop who oppresses you with seatbelt laws, drug possession laws, gun-carry laws, nudity laws, compulsory education, prostitution laws, etc.  The Feds don't get into all that.  They just take half of your money by what they call Taxation, and that's not gonna change.  But we'll save a lot of money right off the bat by not bothering to Enforce all those State & Local Laws.  Any Federal LAws the Feds want to enforce, that's at their expense; we can't stop them, but we don't have to help them.

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MajesticLeo

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2003, 12:31:37 pm »

I have to agree with Zack, I can't see where they would care one way or the other.  In fact, they might be somewhat amused, after all here is the whole bunch of people voluntarily selecting their own reservation where it would be easier to keep an eye on them.  

We certainly aren't a direct threat to the Federal Government,  but then neither was anyone on Ruby Ridge or in Waco...............Besides we aren't all going to be living on the Big Ranch on the Plains or in the Hidden Valley of New Hampshire.  I would imagine we are all on enough lists now, just from living that being on one more won't have much impact on our lives.
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RidleyReport

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2003, 03:23:17 pm »


Herbalist:

We're honored that you're considering signing up.  

You wrote:

<<My husband is concerned about the security of FSP individuals from the American Government.>>

If there is reason to fear your government where you live now, does that make it more or less important to get away to a place where there is already more freedom?  Perhaps to the only place in the world where freedom is likely to increase over the next ten years?

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Tony

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2003, 04:06:35 pm »

If your name isn't already on a bunch of lists you're not working hard enough.  Have you ever filled out a 4473 (yellow form required to purchase a gun from a dealer), gotten a CC permit/license, signed a pro-liberty petition, made contributions to pro-liberty campaigns, stated you views on the phone, written emails that showed your views, visited pro-liberty discussion boards (like this one), etc.?  If you haven't done a single one of these things you might want to remain anonymous.  If you have done any of these things you have nothing to lose.  And besides, cowardice won't get us anywhere.  Where would we be if the Founding Fathers would've decided not to do anything because the british might kill them?

If you're really concerned about this your best bet is to start hitting the range at least once per week and to buy more ammo and other gear.   Why hide under the bed when you can get ready to bury the enemy, IF (and it's pretty unlikely) they initiate force against you?  The odds of a Waco/Ruby Ridge style scenario are pretty slim, but they might try the inconviencing tactics you suggested.  So what?  We deal with stuff like that all of the time in the states we're in right now.  Isn't a shot at liberty  worth the risk of minor inconviences?


Tony, The Man of Many Lists ;)
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Zack Bass

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2003, 04:12:43 pm »


If you're really concerned about this your best bet is to start hitting the range at least once per week and to buy more ammo and other gear.   Why hide under the bed when you can get ready to bury the enemy, IF (and it's pretty unlikely) they initiate force against you?


When was the last time that worked?
(Not that I think it's wrong; only futile and counterproductive.)

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MajesticLeo

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2003, 04:56:21 pm »


If you're really concerned about this your best bet is to start hitting the range at least once per week and to buy more ammo and other gear.   Why hide under the bed when you can get ready to bury the enemy, IF (and it's pretty unlikely) they initiate force against you?



When was the last time that worked?
(Not that I think it's wrong; only futile and counterproductive.)



Well, it can work as a great stress reliever, putting little holes in things with loud noises.  But that is about all I think it accomplishes. ;D
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Tony

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2003, 05:26:45 pm »

If they're already trying to blow you up you might as well shoot back.  ;)  It worked once to create this nation, but I agree with you that it's probably futile.  That said, I know I'd much rather try to stop them and fail than just sit there like a fat-@$$ sheep while they roast me.  Plus, if we're going to die either way why shouldn't we make sure some of them die too?

I highly doubt that FSP members will be forced into such a situation.  We'll be too large a group scattered over too large of an area.  It's a lot easier to surround one housing facility and kill all the residents than to search throughout an entire state for 20000 people.  This potential member sounds as though she and her husband think that a violent confrontation with the feds is much more likely than I do. I think that the feds are too big of cowards to go after anything more than one family or apartment building sized group.

You have to admit that the statists would be a lot more bold if they didn't have to worry about getting impaled, er I mean impeached, for screwing us over too much too fast.  Armed resistance is suicide against such a vastly superior force--but it beats being the victim of murder.  
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Herbalist

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2003, 04:54:10 pm »

If your name isn't already on a bunch of lists you're not working hard enough.  Have you ever filled out a 4473 (yellow form required to purchase a gun from a dealer), gotten a CC permit/license, signed a pro-liberty petition, made contributions to pro-liberty campaigns, stated you views on the phone, written emails that showed your views, visited pro-liberty discussion boards (like this one), etc.?  

I sure appreciate the responses!  Tony is right - I've done all of those things, and I can only imagine the number of lists I might already be on.  My husband, having read "Unintended Consequences" too many times, is far more paranoid than I am...

I guess my concerns were more along the lines of being singled out for unreasonably thorough IRS audits, or being denied the next time I purchase a firearm, things like that between now and the time the move begins.  My husband and I are completely law-abiding citizens, but that doesn't stop the IRS from its heavy-handed tactics.

I imagine that once the move takes place and freedom-loving activists are a significant percentage of the population of a state, there will be less threat than there is now for singling out individuals.  I hope.

H, the armed earth mother
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Radar

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2003, 05:44:42 pm »

Someone told me the Fed would murder all 20,000 people like they did with the people in Waco and Ruby Ridge.  I told him we wouldn't be in one location and if they did try to kill 20,000 people they'd have a big fight on their hands.  If they managed to kill all 20,000 of us, 20 million would replace us.
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Sebastian

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2003, 08:35:58 am »

Quote
If they managed to kill all 20,000 of us, 20 million would replace us.
Agreed.

If they have the IRS go after us, we'll get the support of anti-IRS/anti-tax groups, and most likely a ton of new members.

If we play our cards right, any aggressive actions by (federal)government against us will play right into our hand.

I realize it may be tough on individual FSP members, but I'm sure that indidivual will find support from our fellow FSP members in emotional and perhaps also financial form.
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Adam Selene

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2003, 04:04:40 pm »

I'm with Herbalist, I'd like to keep my FBI/TIA file as small as possible.

Those types of people (who have every right to make that choice); may choose not to participate in certain types of activism (petition signing, joining political parties, voting, getting arrested, using their real name when signing up for FSP, etc).

However, Herbalist, there are still many ways to participate. Move to the target state, create jobs, donate money, finance venture startups, recruit other members, etc. IMHO this type of activism is worth 100x what your vote or name on a petition is worth.
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LeopardPM

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2003, 07:31:49 am »

Herbalist,
Would you agree that the more non-violent, non-secession type people get involved - the less chance of the government being able to rally support in their attempts of dislodging us?  So, I would say that by you deciding to join, you actually lower the chances of government intervention and raise the chances of the FSP succeeding... whatchya got to lose?

Good to meet you, H

see you in the FreeState 0 even if you just come to visit
michael
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Herbalist

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Re:Security Concerns
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2003, 08:31:06 am »

Michael,

I don't think I would agre that more non-violent, non-secession type people would lessen the chance of the government deciding all FSP members were a threat to be closely monitored.  Randy Weaver's family just wanted to be left alone, and see what happened to them?  It started with entrapment by the BATF and ended in bloodshed.  The Branch Davidians just wanted to be left alone, and they were initially ensnared by obscure tax issues that also ended in horrific bloodshed.  Not that either group was completely blameless, of course, but the reaction of the federal government was consistently out of proportion in both cases.

No, I'm afraid that FSP members are going to be singled out, like I mentioned in my initial post, for increased IRS scrutiny, denial of handgun permits, revokation of security clearances, etc, starting long before any move occurs.

However, that doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for the project!  In deference to my husband's concerns I don't think we'll be joining - but I do plan to support the project financially and move to the chosen state as soon as it's announced.  It just so happens that we plan on moving in the next seven years or so and all the states on the list sound good.  

It is so vital to live as one's ethics dictate, so I'm afraid this makes me something of a hypocrite.  But, in this case, I'm not so sure much can be accomplished by getting my name adding to another list.  BUT -- I want the project to succeed, and for a state to be chosen by those brave enough to participate, so I can move there and become an activist also!  I feel sheepish admitting that, and hope the members of FSP won't think poorly of me for it.  I so whole-heartedly believe in freedom and individual self-determination but feel hopelessly trapped and frustrated by the current system.   :'(

I love these boards and feel so hopeful when reading posts from so many like-minded people.  I have no doubt the FSP will succeed, and we'll be there after the fact, if you'll have us!

H
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