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[Barbara]

Was John Walker a terrorist (deliberately targetting innocent bystanders) or a soldier/guerilla/combatant/traitor fighting against the US invasion of Afghanistan?

He was a traitor

Is Israel a terrorist state for deliberately targetting non-combatants and using collective punishment?

They do not deliberately target non-combatants.  

I would be interested to know your opinion on the reasons behind terrorism.

Tribalism

I'm sure all the dead civilian non-combatants are able to rest in peace knowing that they were shot/bombed accidentally.

The dead are dead.  It is the living I am worried about now.

[Barbara]

Don't know what you two will come up with next, but I gotta go now.  Bye

[5pectre]

 \Ter"ror*ism\, n. [Cf. F. terrorisme.] The act of terrorizing, or state of being terrorized; a mode of government by terror or intimidation. --Jefferson.

A less ambiguous definition.

I wholeheartedly agree that anyone who supports a terrorist state is a valid target.  I disagree that the U.S. is such a state.  Self-defense is not terrorism; it is the proper role of government (and one of the only ones), and protects your and my right to have this argument (ahem, I mean discussion)

No, the US prefers to hire other people to do their terrorism for them.

I'd hardly call most of the US wars (official and otherwise) in this last century 'self-defence'.

and protects your and my right to have this argument (ahem, I mean discussion)

While it uses your taxes to support terror and war.

[5pectre]

He was a traitor

Fair enough. Not a terrorist then?

They do not deliberately target non-combatants..

Yes they do. The illegal occupation is unjustified, inhumane and an affront to any kind of moral values.

http://www.inrs-telecom.uquebec.ca/users/amer/kufrqassem/washngton_post_on_KQm.html
http://www.yesh-gvul.org/english.html
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

Straight from the horses mouth. The testimonials by israeli soldiers are particularly potent.

For a comprehensive list see

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_israel.html

(good information but remember to check all links, quotes).

Tribalism

You couldn't be more wrong. Have you talked to any arabs/muslims about it? Or are you just guessing?

When Osama bin Laden speaks about his reasons he has the support of very few muslims. Western media often portrays the views of a few extremists as the views of an entire population.

It isn't your liberal values or your culture that they hate it isn't even jealousy. Of the overwhelming number of muslims I have spoken to that have spoken out against the US it is because of their foreign policy. Particularly regarding the middle east.

The dead are dead.  It is the living I am worried about now.

Indeed and the best way you can help them is to not support the US governments foreign policy. Try comparing it against George Washingtons (http://www.ronholland.com/supportwashington.htm)

Regarding western media...

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_media.html

He gets a bit lefty in some places but his advice to check all sources is commendable. If you skip over some of the body, read the conclusion.

[5pectre]

Yup, no doubt hes a fruitloop, but all the same, I prefer not to have my info sources so heavily censored. Any time info is that heavily censored I tend to get rather ticked off. I prefer to make my own decisions, and not be told how I am supposed to think about any given issue.

Indeed, over here the media tends to portray most americans as insular and unknowing of their governments policies. You seem to be pretty knowledgable. Would you say this is the case for most americans?

Heres a bit that didn't quite make it past the US censors

Interesting, I hadn't seen that before. thanks

[5pectre]

I read your media quite frequently, as well as that of many different regions. Your media is much less censored than that here in the US. Naturally, all regions have their own spin - I haven't seen an exception yet - but some are seriously worse than others.

Yeah, my particular favourite for propaganda at the moment is http://english.peopledaily.com.cn. Every article leaves you guessing as to what is *actually* going on in there

British media is normally pretty good so long as you can identify their angle and you keep away from the tabloids (Daily Mail, Sun, Mirror etc.). The Guardian is usually a safe bet although some people may find it a bit lefty. Also best to give the Times a miss (a murdoch enterprise). The BBC is either evenhanded and reasonable or really good at propaganda. Sometimes there is a bit of both. Usually with enough news sources you can work out a reasonable approximation of what is going on.

For more on this, some was covered in an excessively large thread concerning the Iraqi Oil War.

I'm just reading that now, wow, 11 pages.

Your comment is one I've heard way too many times from friends I have in other countries for it to be easily discounted. Frankly, and for good reason, much of the world think we are idiots who are spoon fed everything we know about the rest of the world.

Most of the world thinks we are puppy dogs being led along by your 'Great Leader'. I went to the anti-war march in london (http://www.stmh.org.uk/gallery/) and was amazed at the amount of public support against the war. Note: The SWP flag
belongs to a greek/american friend of mine and is not representative of my political beliefs. As an aside I was in greece this summer when they caught the greek 'terrorists' (november 17). It all seemed to happen very quickly did you get much news of it?

In fact, almost without exception, most were wairy of actually becoming very sociable, as Americans have a very lousy international track record in that area - not only our gov, but as individuals as well.

Nearly all of the americans I have come into contact with have had *some* idea of what is going on. But then... most of them I have met on the internet where they have access to a wide range of news sources. Also, most of the people I have met have been left leaning. I have rarely seen any libertarians with an in depth knowledge of their countries foreign policy (just an observation)

One of the more amusing things I've noticed is that a large number of folks in other countries are fluent in a fair number of languages, while most Americans can barely handle english (and often rather badly at that.)

Same here Everyone in this country seems to assume that the rest of the world speaks english (a leftover from imperialism i suppose). I have been learning french from an early age but despite taking an 'A-level' in it i am probably no better than a french kid is at english at age 14. I'm convinced that this is because in france they start them on english earlier.

As for our foreign policies... thats where the big 5 comes in. Remember, we're fighting terrorists, sigh. Patriotism here in the US has come to mean gluing one of those little flags on your window, being PC, and never raising the carpet to see what may have been swept under it.

Indeed, of course anyone criticising new 'anti-terrorist' policies gets shouted down for being un-patriotic and siding with the terrorists. There was a short piece on channel4 here asking people in the street the names of famous people (prime minister, saddam hussein, some random 'celebrities'). One old lady they interviewed said (of saddam hussein), "I don't know what his name is, but he's the bad man". Astonishing.

And thanks for those links you dropped previously. I took a brief look, but will have to check them closer when time allows.

np. there is some interesting stuff there. it seems pretty fair handed to me although he occasionally sides on the left.

[Barbara]

\Ter"ror*ism\, n. [Cf. F. terrorisme.] The act of terrorizing, or state of being terrorized; a mode of government by terror or intimidation. --Jefferson.

A less ambiguous definition.

and a better one - notice the term "government by" and again the operative phrase will come down to one of lawfulness.

No, the US prefers to hire other people to do their terrorism for them.

Well, they may subcontract defensive measures, that is: defense of the modicum of freedom we have left (which comparatively speaking is a lot, though not optimal by any means).  That you can call it terrorism shows only that you do not understand the principles involved.  If you can't see the difference between terrorism and self-defense, once again I invite you to go live in the middle east for a time (a long one ).  Terrorism has as its core hatred of the living; self-defense has as its core 1) a self, and 2) love of life, and the desire to continue to do what is necessary to support and continue it.

I'd hardly call most of the US wars (official and otherwise) in this last century 'self-defence'.

While I was not in favor of the Viet Nam war because it is true we were not threatened directly, and though I can't speak for the soldiers of that war or their families, I prefer to believe they gave their service and their lives in the pursuit of the protection of freedom, however wrong I thought it was for our government to send them to do it (same for Bosnia, etc.).  I'd like however to see you stand in front of those at Pearl Harbor and the soldiers of WWII and their families, and tell them that was not a war in self-defense.  WWI - and others, again arguably, though possibly incorrect, I believe the soldiers and most in the country thought they were acting to protect freedom.  We may not disagree on the propriety, but do apparently on the motives.

All that said, I am no Pollyanna - I do believe there were viciously callous government officials and others who pursued or supported these "wars" for reasons other than defense of freedom - mostly political power - it still is not terrorism.  Now, the IRS? the FCC? the FDA? the SEC? the FAA? the ATF? the DEA? - that's different!    Presumably that is why we are here talking at all - we want a limited, open government that protects our freedom and that we are willing to pay for and do so voluntarily.

While it uses your taxes to support terror and war.

I disagree with your continued misuse of the term "terror" when you apparently have no idea of what it consists of.  There is really no point in my continuing this discussion with you if we can't agree on definitions of terms - although it has been very interesting.  

And as a final note, although I'd prefer a voluntary system of payment, I am glad to pay for my defense and the defense of any freedom we do have left in this country, while I work to make things better; and I simply have to believe any intelligent, rational person does as well.

[5pectre]

and a better one - notice the term "government by" and again the operative phrase will come down to one of lawfulness.

so terrorism isn't the act of terrorising then?

Well, they may subcontract defensive measures, that is: defense of the modicum of freedom we have left (which comparatively speaking is a lot, though not optimal by any means).

nicely put 'subcontract defensive measures'. what that means is hire, train and supply terrorists and thugs. the kind of people that kill nuns.


If you can't see the difference between terrorism and self-defense,

Oh but I can You seem to be saying that if the US or its allies does something then it is in self defense. But if any of our 'enemies' do it then it is terrorism. It is a very hypocritical stance and like the US stance on so called 'free trade' causes worldwide resentment.

once again I invite you to go live in the middle east for a time (a long one ).

No thanks, I wouldn't want to get shot by a 'stray' Israeli bullet/shell/grenade/missile thanks.

Terrorism has as its core hatred of the living

Terrorism has at its core a hatred of the target. A hatred inspired by the hatred that that target has inflicted upon them. In the case of afghanistan, the russian occupation. in the case of checnya the russian occupation. in the case of palestine the israeli occupation. the list goes on...

Vietnam, WW2, WW1 all had conscription. How can conscription be compatible with liberty? Yeah they protected freedom by going to some south east asian country at the whim of their government and killing the locals. A small piece on the South Vietnamese government:

Ngo Dinh Diem oppressed the Vietnamese people so badly that many of them turned to the communists for protection from his ruthless rule. Even President Eisenhower admitted that "had elections been held, possibly 80% of the population would have voted for Ho Chi Minh [the communist leader]." Yet Diem, who had once lived in the U.S., had connections in Washington who liked his anti-communism. He founded the Can Lao Party (CLP), a secret police force overseen by his brother, Ngo Dinh Nhu, and Nhu's wife, Madame Nhu. The three (whom one U.S. official called "three victims of blank wall irrationality") were notorious for their ineptitude and cruelty, and, according to Brigadier General Edward Lansdale, the CLP was not their idea; it "was originally promoted by the U.S. Stale Department" to rid the country of communists.
Diem alienated urban professionals by suppressing all opposition to his regime. He alienated peasants by cancelling their age old local elections, forcing them off their land, and moving them into "agrovilles" surrounded by barbed wire. which even U.S. officials conceded bore a striking resemblance to "concentration camps." Ultimately, he angered his own military officers because he promoted on the basis of loyalty - not merit. In an effort to keep Diem in power, the U.S. tried to persuade him to make political reforms. He refused, so they persuaded him to make "military reforms." But when Diem was finally overthrown and assassinated in 1963, none of his generals rose to defend him. Nor did the U.S., which, after 8 years, had finally realized that Diem wasn't popular.

Wasn't there some kind of international ruling that said the south vietnamese had a right to self-determination?

As a matter of interest did you read any of those links I gave you? Are you still convinced that your government hasn't been supporting world wide terror for most of the last century at your expense?

I disagree with your continued misuse of the term "terror" when you apparently have no idea of what it consists of.

My definition is: Violence committed or threatened by a group to intimidate or coerce a population, as for military or political purposes.

The violence going on in Israel is terror. On both the side of the muslim extremists and on the side of the Israeli government. The Palestinian people aren't terrorists. The Israeli people aren't terrorists (well, those who support the occupation are) and yet they are both victims of terror.

And as a final note, although I'd prefer a voluntary system of payment, I am glad to pay for my defense and the defense of any freedom we do have left in this country,

Happy paying to support Israeli terror aswell then? And do you think it takes $379billion dollars just for self defense?

while I work to make things better; and I simply have to believe any intelligent, rational person does as well.

Unfortunate that none of these intelligent rational people work in government.

[Barbara]

5pectre - If I had only known you were European, we could have saved all this typing.  While you may find America haters among the FSP, I am not one.  I believe you and all your Euro brethren owe your freedom to us (whatever modicum of it you may have), and that you dare to call my government terrorist shows not only the lack of understanding that I previously mentioned, but the most profound ignorance and ingratitude.  Call me any name you like; I love this country and what it stands for - and you apparently will never understand what that is.  I'm sure however that you will enjoy continuing this discussion with mouseborg who seems to have fallen hook line and sinker for your Euro-BS.  

[maestro]

We have very little reason to be humble.  For the US to be humble would be tantamount to lying

[Barbara]

Yes, we Americans are a humble lot, aren't we. Thats why we are loved the world over.

Isn't it interesting being written off due to being European? Can you imagine how it would have went if you had been black, gay, female, and European?

There is so much anti-American bias in Europe today that it is not surprising to hear it spewed.  

Being European involves a choice.  The other categories do not.  I would have thought you would have known that.  You and I have had some good discussions Mouse; I hope they can continue - but in this case, I think you are playing into this America hater's game.  I attribute it to innocence.  But if you too are an America hater/basher, then we can't discuss any related issue either, because - although this country has serious flaws that I am working to correct (and I thought you were too) - it is still the best country to live in anywhere, and I can't -won't - let America haters bash it with impunity.

[Barbara]

By the way - Americans are not humble - we don't have anything to be humble about.  We feed and protect the world.  But lack of humility is not the only reason we are hated.  We are hated because we are happy, love life and are good at living it.  We are also hated because we are not humble - we do not beg the world's forgiveness for being good, for protecting them and sending them aid and food; we are proud of our accomplishments and they are many. One of them was the World Trade Center which I can only hope will be rebuilt.  And I am ashamed that some of the very countrymen who benefit from living here would play into the hands of those who wish us destroyed, including European America haters.  I am going to stop now and go somewhere to discuss more pleasant things.

[Barbara]

Do you imagine that true patriotism requires bending over for ones government?

Of course not silly man - else, why would I be here having these discussions at all.  

As for basher/hater, or whatever, you clearly skipped through my previous posts (as well as quite a number of others I've made in this forum) without actually reading them.

I haven't read them all (all those on the site that is), but the ones I had read until the recent ones on this thread indicated to me that you care about this country or you would not be here trying to correct some of the problems we have; but IMO when you try to appease America haters, you give them the moral ammunition to do harm to the rest of us.    And you'd know that if you carefully read my post - go back and re read it.  

BTW there is nothing wrong with emotion - emotion is nothing more nor less than one's reaction in a given situation; one's reaction depends upon one's epistemology, moral code, etc.  It's just that its primary function is not appropriately decision-making.

 I have to presume here that, as myself, you have earned the right to criticize your country, even in the amount you have already done, by having first served your country in a military capacity?

 How absurd.  Do you imagine that true patriotism reuires serving in the military?  No, of course it does not - but it does require being grateful to them for serving and protecting my rights, and I am.  Having served in the military should have taught you though that there are people out there who want to harm us, and to play along with them only helps that.  And I guess I am confused, wasn't it your Euro pal who was doing the bashing; shouldn't you be asking him/her that question?

I have the right to and will stand up to anyone who tries to harm me or my country in any legal way I can however, and I have this right by virtue of having been born an American citizen.  Which is more than I can say for the European America bashers (or any other non - U.S. citizens).  So don't give me that **** about not having served in the military.  

Also - to answer another post of yours, I have not inhaled my values from the media as you intimate; and my mind is not amenable to the type of brainwashing that is contained therein - or I likely wouldn't be supporting this group, now would I?

Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection by that state.

Nonsense.  Of course they do.  However, I prefer anyone who benefits from living here support and defend this country, at least not play into the hands of those who would wish us destroyed (although that does not mean no criticism of things that need corrected - I'll say again for the umpteenth time - but I prefer constructive critism along with action to implement solutions, as this group is doing).

And, (can we leave this topic now and go on to something useful and interesting) I am neither a pacifist nor an anarchist - you apparently haven't carefully read my posts here on this board either.   So, go read them, and let's continue having good heated discussions - I just don't want to have any truck with anyone who hates us (that's U.S.) and has no intention of helping at all.

[5pectre]

*laugh*

Good show guys.

How does it feel to know the Truth [tm] 1984 style?

Keep bringing your emotions to the table in place of real arguments and you won't get very far. I find it amazing that in such a liberty loving forum that there could be people who support the government.

A further request, did you read those links? Did you even take a cursory glance? When you come back with facts and references to counter the information presented in those links then I will declare the argument yours. Until then i'm afraid you are merely re-inforcing a stereotype.

Regarding the assumption that you 'saved' us from the nazis. It is my opinion that it was partially our failure to deal with the outcome of the first world war that lead to the second. Are you aware of the casualty figures for the second world war? americans dead: 400,000. soviets dead: 10,000,000. The soviets had as much to do with winning the war as you did.

Wow, three comments with blanket generalisations about what 'europeans' think. I wonder could you name all the countries in europe off the top of your head? In case you weren't aware Europe is a continent not a country (the same goes for africa (to save you consulting a map)).

mouse: indeed

By the way - Americans are not humble - we don't have anything to be humble about.  We feed and protect the world.  But lack of humility is not the only reason we are hated.  We are hated because we are happy, love life and are good at living it.  We are also hated because we are not humble - we do not beg the world's forgiveness for being good, for protecting them and sending them aid and food; we are proud of our accomplishments and they are many. One of them was the World Trade Center which I can only hope will be rebuilt.  And I am ashamed that some of the very countrymen who benefit from living here would play into the hands of those who wish us destroyed, including European America haters.  I am going to stop now and go somewhere to discuss more pleasant things.

Excuse me while I laugh and puke at the same time. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

America hater's

This is the most worrying part. You assume that because I don't support your government (which i'm sure is doing its best to keep your interests safeguarded) that I hate america and you are instantly on the defensive. I haven't said once that I hate america or even that I hate the american government and yet you immediately take it on yourself to presume. This is social conditioning at its best. I wonder if you could answer this question: In which european country did the US support a military junta between 1967 and 1973 in the overthrow of a democratic government? and do you think the people of that country a) thank the US for it, b) despise the US for it?

I'm amazed that someone who is considering joining a free state movement has no idea about american foreign policy or world feeling about americans. Is this just denial or do you really not know?

Please go and read the links. I could spell it out to you but it would take weeks.

I am going to stop now and go somewhere to discuss more pleasant things.

Yes, when things trouble you it is best to get your mind off them and whatever you do DON'T SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH, it'll only disappoint you.

which is more along the lines of, when we screw around with other people, usually due to snagging their resources, they tend to get annoyed.

yup and screwing around with people is pretty much against the whole libertarian ideal.


Being European involves a choice.

What can I say I was born here and can't afford to leave yet.

it is still the best country to live in anywhere,

I thought that was a toss up between Canada and Sweden.

and I can't -won't - let America haters bash it with impunity.

I don't hate america any more than I hate china or russia or japan (i.e. not at all). What I have a strong dislike of is your foreign policy.

and one more time to drill the point home:

I DON'T HATE AMERICA IF I HATED AMERICA DO YOU THINK I WOULD HAVE SIGNED UP FOR THE FSP, DO YOU THINK I WOULD BE PLAYING ALONG WITH AN AMERICAN GUITAR AND AN AMERICAN AMP TO AN AMERICAN BAND? I DISLIKE YOUR GOVERNMENT FULL STOP (or period as you would say)

blnelson: you are the epitamy of the type of american i was describing. you fit the stereotype surprisingly well. for this i don't blame you. i don't resent you and i don't hate you. if you choose to live in ignorance and follow what your government has to tell you with baited breath then you might as well be in china. they don't have to think about government policy there because what the government says goes and i'm sure they are very patriotic about it. much like the north koreans and the cubans.

mouse: spell checker? (if you are referring to the difference between american english and british english then you are touching on a subject that is the source of a lot of humour between me and my american friends)

[Barbara]

if that works for you?

works for me

Oh and yes, I actually do feel military service (or equivalent) should be required for certain "rights". Voting would be one.

What do you do with all the people too old to serve in the military when you implement this rule?

I also support the idea put forth in another thread that some sort of minimal comprehension test be required for same (along with all its attendant problems mentioned elsewhere.) TANSTAAFL.

I like the minimal comprehension test as well.  It should be anonymous however and not given at the time of voting.  It could be a form that you pick up anywhere, take the test before a notary, have it certified, send it back; if you pass, you receive a card that you can take in to register (which should be done in person)...but this all is a topic for another thread, no?  What's TANSTAAFL?