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Author Topic: Execution on Suspicion.  (Read 19929 times)

maestro

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2002, 12:53:27 am »

Do you realize how _big_ the pentagon is?  I don't think it would be all that difficult to hit the pentagon.
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Barbara

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2002, 12:53:38 am »

Your continual evasion of my questions is what is making it impossible to discuss foreign policy. I don't suppose you've ever worked for the government have you? :)
I don't recall any questions I haven't answered.
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Perhaps that is your problem,
or perhaps not

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Precisely the problem. Making assumptions about an entire continent of people based on what you see in your media isn't a good idea.
Then stop doing so.
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Have you met many people from europe? There are media stereotypes everywhere, it is important to see past them.
Then by all means try to do so.
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Apologies if i went off on one but sometimes it feels like i'm talking to a brick wall :)
I know this apology wasn't for me, but, I accept it anyway, and understand exactly how you feel. ;)
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Barbara

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2002, 12:56:39 am »

BTW, I don't much like the american intelligentsia either.  When I refer to the "intelligentsia"  :)

I very much agree, and I react similarly to both - I call them "intellectuals"
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Barbara

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2002, 01:05:28 am »

Do you realize how _big_ the pentagon is?  I don't think it would be all that difficult to hit the pentagon.
That was my first reaction; my second is that it was an unhappy accident - it was just a big thing to destroy because the guy couldn't find the White House.  But I've come to respect MouseBorg on this board and will  consider and research his assertions.

See Mr. Mouse - I can be unemotional too :P
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5pectre

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2002, 10:16:47 am »

I don't recall any questions I haven't answered.

Here are the questions that I have asked that you have not answered:

A further request, did you read those links?
Did you even take a cursory glance?
In which european country did the US support a military junta between 1967 and 1973 in the overthrow of a democratic government?
Do you think the people of that country a) thank the US for it, b) despise the US for it?
Happy paying to support Israeli terror aswell then?
And do you think it takes $379billion dollars just for self defense?
I wonder could you name all the countries in europe off the top of your head? (this was partly rhetorical but i would be interested to know)

Then stop doing so.

heh, the USA isn't a continent and i'm not making assumptions about all americans as i have clarified many times before.

Then by all means try to do so.

i do. :)

I know this apology wasn't for me, but, I accept it anyway, and understand exactly how you feel.

The apology is for anyone who wants to take it. I hope you realise that I'm not trying to offend you or your countrymen but I am merely trying to point out where your government is going wrong foreign policy wise and what implications that has for you, a US citizen. The attacks on 11/09 were as a direct result of the foreign policy of the american government. surely you don't think your people deserve that?
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5pectre

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2002, 10:50:51 am »

... it would appear you have made our cause your own, so I see no issue here. It would seem, at least to some degree, that you are in fact already one of our countrymen as well.

thanks, i may have some 'funny' ideas but i am definitely serious about the fsp. for someone who holds their country in high esteem thanks for the complement mouse :).
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Barbara

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2002, 12:20:06 pm »

OK OK This is me backing off.

I don't recall any questions I haven't answered.

Here are the questions that I have asked that you have not answered:

A further request, did you read those links?
Did you even take a cursory glance?
In which european country did the US support a military junta between 1967 and 1973 in the overthrow of a democratic government?
Do you think the people of that country a) thank the US for it, b) despise the US for it?
Happy paying to support Israeli terror aswell then?
And do you think it takes $379billion dollars just for self defense?
I wonder could you name all the countries in europe off the top of your head? (this was partly rhetorical but i would be interested to know)
yes; yes; don't recall at this moment; don't care at this moment; don't consider Israeli military action to defend itself terror; no, it takes $379 billion dollars to pay for $500 hammers made to specifications in a 100 page document produced by bureaucrats with nothing else to do but make it difficult to do business with the government; I retain some trivia in my long-term memory - try to keep short-term memory clear for info that matters to me and therefore dump most trivia from that compartment.
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I hope you realise that I'm not trying to offend you or your countrymen but I am merely trying to point out where your government is going wrong foreign policy wise and what implications that has for you, a US citizen.
Well see this is what I bristle at - if you couched it in terms of your opinion about where the government is going wrong, we might disagree, but we could at least discuss it.  When you couch the issue in terms that indicate that you 1) have all the info required to know what is really wrong, 2) are unbiased and not yourself the victim of media hype, and 3) are the be all end all expert in the subject and know more than any US citizen ever can, it leaves very little open for discussion.  

BTW, as an aside, I am not a conservative (in case you thought I might be) - it would be hard to label me and be correct.

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The attacks on 11/09 were as a direct result of the foreign policy of the american government.
 Your opinion.  I disagree.

OK. As I said, this is me backing off.  I apologize for the generalization about Europeans.  :-[   Many do however hate the US and make no bones about it. :-\
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5pectre

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2002, 12:52:31 pm »

OK OK This is me backing off.

Ok

yes; yes;

don't recall at this moment

Greece. Perhaps if your government hadn't supported it then some more of your citizens would be alive today. It was as a direct result of the US support for Papadopolous that the November 17 'terrorist' group was formed. The same terrorist group that has killed numerous US and UK citizens to date.

don't care at this moment

Well, i'll give you a clue then, it is B.

don't consider Israeli military action to defend itself terror

Oh, defend itself on land that it stole. That makes sense. That's like the germans saying that they were defending germans in Poland from the Polish.

no, it takes $379 billion dollars to pay for $500 hammers made to specifications in a 100 page document produced by bureaucrats with nothing else to do but make it difficult to do business with the government

I'm sure the businesses are happy with this arrangement. It means that they can charge more for their products and make more profit. Whilst you are paying for it. This happens all over the world, here in Britain there was a story about how there were nuts and bolts valued at 80GBP each. It is big business and the government conspiring to take your money away from you and unlike some social programs, this isn't even for a good cause.

I retain some trivia in my long-term memory - try to keep short-term memory clear for info that matters to me and therefore dump most trivia from that compartment

Ok so no then. Take a look on a map, there are quite a few of them. Each with their own national identity.

1) have all the info required to know what is really wrong

I don't have all the information. I don't pretend to. I do however have information from reasonably trustworthy sources. Hence the Israeli military link and the Israeli peace site link.

2) are unbiased and not yourself the victim of media hype

I am somewhat biased, we all are. I try to be as impartial as possible. I wouldn't say I was a victim of media hype. I take care to research anything before I speak about it.

3) are the be all end all expert in the subject and know more than any US citizen ever can

I wouldn't presume that, MouseBorg seems to know more than me.

BTW, as an aside, I am not a conservative (in case you thought I might be) - it would be hard to label me and be correct.

Good for you. I'll label you as an American :)

OK. As I said, this is me backing off.

Ok, if you think that is best. I would encourage you to come back with responses to some of the links I posted but if you don't have the time/effort then nevermind.

I apologize for the generalization about Europeans.

Thanks.

Many do however hate the US and make no bones about it.

Some of them have reason to hate the US government. Many have difficulties in differentiating between american individuals and the american government. But then we all have difficulty in differentiating between governments and people as has been demonstrated earlier in the thread.

Your opinion.  I disagree.

Osama bin Laden:

This is a major point in jurisprudence. In my view, if an enemy occupies a Muslim territory and uses common people as human shield, then it is permitted to attack that enemy. For instance, if bandits barge into a home and hold a child hostage, then the child's father can attack the bandits and in that attack even the child may get hurt.

America and its allies are massacring us in Palestine, Chechenya, Kashmir and Iraq. The Muslims have the right to attack America in reprisal. The Islamic Shariat says Muslims should not live in the land of the infidel for long. The Sept 11 attacks were not targeted at women and children. The real targets were America's icons of military and economic power.

The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) was against killing women and children. When he saw a dead woman during a war, he asked why was she killed ? If a child is above 13 and wields a weapon against Muslims, then it is permitted to kill him.

The American people should remember that they pay taxes to their government, they elect their president, their government manufactures arms and gives them to Israel and Israel uses them to massacre Palestinians. The American Congress endorses all government measures and this proves that the entire America is responsible for the atrocities perpetrated against Muslims. The entire America, because they elect the Congress.

I ask the American people to force their government to give up anti-Muslim policies. The American people had risen against their government's war in Vietnam. They must do the same today. The American people should stop the massacre of Muslims by their government.
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Barbara

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2002, 01:23:15 pm »

I'm sure the businesses are happy with this arrangement.It means that they can charge more for their products and make more profit.
Actually most businesses aren't - you may have missed the point - the hammer costs $500 because of the bureaucracy, not because businesses are making more profit (honest businesses that is - I recognize some are not, but most really are - but don't lets get started on this in this thread)  Most honest business people would prefer to make more product more profitably - and appropriately so, but the wasted time and resources trying to comply with the bureaucracy does not allow for this.  It is dishonest business and government power abuse, not "big" business and government - size in and of itself is irrelevant (look at Microsoft which has been persecuted although in fact because of being the largest - dollar wise business i, the US several years ago) - that is the problem in thsi and most countries.

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I do however have information from reasonably trustworthy sources. Hence the Israeli military link and the Israeli peace site link.
Those sites did not appear to me to be any more unbiased or trustworthy than any other.  Just because you think they are doesn't make them so - all groups are rife with disgruntled former members telling stories of the alleged abuse of those groups (I am not saying that your sources are not accurate just that there is no reason to think they might be more accurate than any other.  Period).  I can say I trust any source I want - that doesn't make it trustworthy.  I don't trust your sources.

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Good for you. I'll label you as an American :)
but not an ugly american now... :P

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but if you don't have the time
it will be more limited as of next week.
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Osama bin Laden
I read this the last time you cited it.  Still don't buy anything he's selling - and that you grant him even an iota of credibillity makes me mistrust your judgment completely.
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5pectre

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2002, 04:28:04 pm »

I don't trust your sources.

Ok, do you have any sources that you do trust? Would you like to share them with me?

I read this the last time you cited it.

I believe it was MouseBorg that cited it.

Still don't buy anything he's selling

He's not selling anything (at least not in the interview).

and that you grant him even an iota of credibillity makes me mistrust your judgment completely

I don't grant him credibility. I think he was wrong for killing those people. I do however think that the US government was partly to blame. You keep kicking a dog and eventually it is going to try and try and bite you. What do you think his reason was?

I don't trust your sources.

Please give me some that you do trust. You say that I am wrong, but at least I provide references. You have made no attempt to back up any of your claims.

look at Microsoft which has been persecuted although in fact because of being the largest

Their persecution despite being covered well in the media has won nothing for the US citizens. The government has basically given up.

Actually most businesses aren't

Businesses are in it to make money. They aren't in business for your benefit. If they can get more money by bribing or making special deals with government officials then they will. Just look at the RIAA and the DMCA and all the 'special' agreements between big business and government. Big business gives kickbacks to politicians to get contracts at inflated prices. It then uses the profits to buy out more politicians. Government and big business are in a pact to make as much money out of you as possible.

I'm sure some of the safety standards are over engineered. But most of the $500 goes on corporate greed and not on conforming with safety standards.
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Barbara

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2002, 07:10:01 pm »

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author=5pectre
What do you think his reason was?

The terrorists hate our liberty, least thats what we were told... you know, the liberty we here in the US no longer have, since we happily surrendered it with the (Anti) Patriot Act (and all the other crap which followed.)
- well to that extent they succeeded didn't they?
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Oddly enough, nobody seems to have thought to ask the terrorists what they thought the issue was. Since we no longer have that vanished liberty, one does have to wonder why these terrorists persist... Odd...
Not odd at all.  It is right in front of anyone who wants to see it.  In addition to hating freedom and happiness (note everything pleasurable is against their law), militant muslims believe that it is necessary to wipe out non-believers (that's most of us), and are told from a very young age that heaven (and all the pleasure they are denied on earth) lies in wait for any of them who die doing so (helps that their families are paid bonuses after they do).

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Its amazing how many Americans actually believe that those people (loopy though they may be) were so enraged at our now extinct liberty that they were more than willing to die to protest itWell, if that was their reasoning (somewhat absurd, to put it mildly), now that our liberty is history, why do they persist, as we are told they are doing?
Not amazing at all - see above

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Barbara

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2002, 07:27:25 pm »

Ok, do you have any sources that you do trust? Would you like to share them with me?
well I trust any Objectivist source, the Drudge report; the Onion; and much of Fox news.

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He's not selling anything (at least not in the interview).
don't be naive - he's selling with every word out of his mouth - whether you know it or not

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You keep kicking a dog and eventually it is going to try and try and bite you. What do you think his reason was?
sometimes it is necessray to kick a mad dog to keep it from biting you he is a mad dog (and to MouseBorg - that's why you don't ask terrorists why they do anything - just as you don't try to reason with or ask mad dogs why they are attacking you.

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Businesses are in it to make money. They aren't in business for your benefit. If they can get more money by bribing or making special deals with government officials then they will. Just look at the RIAA and the DMCA and all the 'special' agreements between big business and government. Big business gives kickbacks to politicians to get contracts at inflated prices. It then uses the profits to buy out more politicians. Government and big business are in a pact to make as much money out of you as possible.
How many big businesses have you owned?

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But most of the $500 goes on corporate greed and not on conforming with safety standards.
You are wrong.  I know how much money, time and other valuable resources my husband's business spends on government intrusion - none of it adds to his profits or safety (in fact some OSHA/WISHA regs actually result in less safety.  I know how much my client businesses spend first-hand and how much many others do too (don't ask - I am ethics bound not to reveal client info).  So all I hear you doing now is repeating the anti-business party line relating to something about which you obviously know little or nothing.  And I really think if you want to discuss business issues, we should move to a different thread.
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5pectre

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2002, 10:59:05 pm »

well I trust any Objectivist source

like...

the Drudge report;

is this (http://www.drudgereport.com/) what you mean by the drudge report?

the Onion

You do realise that the onion is satire... ?

and much of Fox news.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,69432,00.html *smirk*

don't be naive - he's selling with every word out of his mouth - whether you know it or not

i suppose you could say he was selling his was of thinking. but then most of us do that anyway.

sometimes it is necessray to kick a mad dog to keep it from biting you he is a mad dog (and to MouseBorg - that's why you don't ask terrorists why they do anything

The dog wouldn't have got so mad if you hadn't have kept on kicking it.

just as you don't try to reason with or ask mad dogs why they are attacking you.

You could reason with yourself. You could ask yourself... "now what did i do to piss this dog off?"

How many big businesses have you owned?

Zero. But then how many governments have you run? Your assertion that in order to know what a business does you have to have run a business is flawed.

I know how much money, time and other valuable resources my husband's business spends on government intrusion - none of it adds to his profits or safety (in fact some OSHA/WISHA regs actually result in less safety.  I know how much my client businesses spend first-hand and how much many others do too (don't ask - I am ethics bound not to reveal client info).

So you are saying that if a business had the opportunity to influence the government and introduce new laws to break its competitors then it wouldn't? I suggest you look at the DMCA and how Adobe got the FBI to arrest a Russian programmer (who wrote a program in russia to decrypt e-books) who was giving a lecture in the US. Are you saying that your husbands business has all of our best interests at heart? Any business given the chance would cheat. If the risk assesment paid off.

So all I hear you doing now is repeating the anti-business party line relating to something about which you obviously know little or nothing.

And all i see you doing is giving the pro-american government pro-business party line relating to something that you have no proven knowledge  of.

And I really think if you want to discuss business issues, we should move to a different thread.

I don't really want to discuss business issues. I was interested in foreign policy
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5pectre

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2002, 11:50:20 am »

Thats fairly typical of Fox, though usually the pro war spin is much more intense. Fox is about as one sided, pro police state, as one can get.

Usually *more* pro-war, i can see why you have problems :)

But it is still fun to monitor however, just to observe the repetitious mental / emotional programming taking place. Its always a good idea to know what one is supposed to think about any given issue.

Yeah, kind of the same reason i read the peoples daily. i'll keep an eye on fox. btw. i couldn't seem to find any foreign affairs section when i looked. does it have one?

The results are rather impressive IMO... Nearly a textbook example straight from Mein Kampf.

You keep telling people the same lies over and over again and eventually they will believe it. I haven't read Mein Kampf, What is it about (I know Hitler wrote it, but what is the content)?
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Barbara

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Re:Execution on Suspicion.
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2002, 01:06:21 pm »

In your mention in another post in this thread of trusting most of Fox News, I now understand completely. Thank you.
Right, no emotional generalizations or disrespectful blanket dismissal going on here.
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Addition:

Umm... question... if those were the actual reasons, wouldn't they prefer attacking Switzerland? Or is that too obvious? Just curious. ???
Sorry I don't know what you're referencing here.
 
To 5pectre (what does that mean by the way?) - Sorry capital D drudge, yes I know the Onion is satire - all but the Objectivists (and Drudge is not one of them) were in jest...
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