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[debra]

My apology's people for butting into your discussion about boards,websites ,emails,and such .
But i'm very new here and i am not a hardcore computer geek either,but i  found out about this site by reading a post  about FSP, from assaultweb.net  ,and from what i see thus far i am still curious even though i am a member i am still wondering what type of people am i dealing with.
I was a card carrying member of t/libertarian party and  quit cause a lot of it's members were just plain silly,what ,and who are you people and what do you stand for,not trying to be rude just want to know for my family's sake and safety
what i am getting into?

No problem, but I'm going to copy this on the Prospective Member board as well.

Most of us (a little over 500) are libertarian leaning. Some are more conservative (think Pat Buchanan) while others are left-libertarians (maybe like Robert Heinlein?) and yet others lean toward market anarchism (a la Rothbard & Spooner). In short, there's no real "type" except that we all want more liberty than we currently have!

As you probably noted, this web board is fairly new (just put up this week, and we haven't even announced it officially on the mail lists), so that's why there's not much activity here. You can probably get a pretty good idea of what we're like by reading some of the archived posts in the various yahoo groups ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fspcrackerbarrel )

Hope this helps, and thanks for posting on our new forum!

Debra

[BLADERUNNER33]

Oh  i've been to the archives and i have look at just about everything once,i'll go over it again,for now i'm jsut trying to get comfortable to my new surroundings.

[Mega Joule]

Oh  i've been to the archives and i have look at just about everything once,i'll go over it again,for now i'm jsut trying to get comfortable to my new surroundings.

Welcome.  I've  been on the email form of this forum for some months now, I'm still trying to get used to this new environment myself.  There are some really nice aspects to the new forum like threaded topics.  As for the general environment of the FSP your doing what we new comers have all had to do and that's just read a lot, post when you have comments or questions, and stick around.  I've already seen some hot topics arise.  Sometimes people get stirred up about things and big discussions go on over issues.  After awhile things get sorted out and we all learn more about each other.  It seems to work out okay in the end.

I think FSP is a great idea.  I have not yet signed up myself, but am certainly leaning in that direction.  Of course not being an official member has not stopped me from getting involved.  I shoot off my opinions at times, I am working on a committee, and I read and post as often as I can.  I think I am finally starting to feel like I am a part of the community.   It took me awhile to feel like I belonged here.  At first I just felt like this outsider.  Again welcome.  

Mega Joule

[antayla]

That sure sounds like an invitation to introduce myself

Well this is one kind of person that is in the free state project.  I guess if I were to label myself I would call myself an agnostic, social libertarian, self-sustainabilitarian, globalist (as in, a free globe for all) environmentalist, pacifist, humanist, gamer  I decided to get into this mess because I believe there's room in this world for every kind of government, and if we are going to see a free globe someone needs to set an example.  For now I will work toward a free state...  One free state.  Hopefully later it can turn into a free world where there is a central government that only exists to protect individual rights.  I also felt this project needed a spokeswoman for environmental health rights (pollution is a problem that affects everyone, and someone needs to keep business accountable for how they poison the general public.)

My husband joined this project with me.  He's a hard-core socialist.  I'm hoping to prove that freedom and socialism can coexist on a voluntary basis

Also, I love music, I love gaming, and I love hanging out outdoors.  I am a hardcore individualist, but I also believe very strongly in the power of the community to work together to fix their own problems, without the aid of a major government.

Anyway I am going to launch a grassroots campaign to promote the free state project...  Portland style and that means a lot of canvassing and leaving fliers around and talking to people at peace rallies etc.  I really hope this works *fingers crossed*

[Eddie_Bradford]

Well I say welcome Antayla!  I'm really glad that you have joined and expecially because we actually we don't have many people from this point of view in our group.  I believe your opinions will be invaluable in targeting and attracting the left leaning libertarians.  

I believe there's room in this world for every kind of government

hopefully not the the mass murdering genocidal war mongraling ones  

I also felt this project needed a spokeswoman for environmental health rights (pollution is a problem that affects everyone, and someone needs to keep business accountable for how they poison the general public.)

Indeed I agree.  I actually think libertarians are very pro-evironment, because of our fierce protection of property rights you could pollute your own land but if you say polluted the air and if went off of your land you would be in serious violation of someone else's property rights.  Also if you say buried waste on you land and that waste seeped into the water table and went into someone else's land then you would be liable for all damages.

He's a hard-core socialist.  I'm hoping to prove that freedom and socialism can coexist on a voluntary basis

I to think that hard-core socialists would be interested in this project because they would be free to form whatever society they wanted as long as it was on a voluntary basis.  
You might want to let you husband know and get used to the fact that really rich people will be able to make money and keep all of it in the FS, and that not government nor anyone else will be able to touch it unless it was gotten through fraud or by violating other people's rights.

I'd also like to give you a word of caution though.  Because of built up latent frustration at the erosion of individual's rights, some libertarians can be a little harsh to people who dissagree with them.  If this happens you should ignore it and realise that they do not speak for the group and that they are taking their frustration that freedom is dying around them out on you.  While I believe that we have an exceptional group of people here, from time to time there will be a jaded libertarian that comes in and flames another person who they dissagree with on a minor point and then leaves in a huff.  Anyway as long as you remember that we are trying to make a society where no one is forced to do anything except respect other's rights then I'm sure you'll be happy here.
-Eddie

[cathleeninsc]

Well this is one kind of person that is in the free state project.  I guess if I were to label myself I would call myself an agnostic, social libertarian, self-sustainabilitarian, globalist (as in, a free globe for all) environmentalist, pacifist, humanist, gamer  
I also felt this project needed a spokeswoman for environmental health rights (pollution is a problem that affects everyone, and someone needs to keep business accountable for how they poison the general public.)

My husband joined this project with me.  He's a hard-core socialist.  I'm hoping to prove that freedom and socialism can coexist on a voluntary basis

Also, I love music, I love gaming, and I love hanging out outdoors.  I am a hardcore individualist, but I also believe very strongly in the power of the community to work together to fix their own problems, without the aid of a major government.

Anyway I am going to launch a grassroots campaign to promote the free state project...  Portland style and that means a lot of canvassing and leaving fliers around and talking to people at peace rallies etc.  I really hope this works *fingers crossed*

Good to see you here. I too am very concerned about the environment but haven't gotten involved with any groups because they usually end up wanting my money to lobby Congress.

And what is voluntary socialism?

I enjoy simple living, which means I am not taken in by media, advertising, and political hype.

I enjoyed the Donahue and Stossel reports on the failed drug war the last couple of nights. I think it would be naive of me to think the tide had turned, though.

Just a little about me. I look forward to hearing from others about how to ensure accountibility regarding environmental trespasses.

I also have been handing out fliers. On Saturday I attended a Americans for Constitutional Government function where the average age was around 70. The only thing I could think was to market the FSP as a retirement opportunity. I guess I wasted my breath and paper.


Cathleen in SC

[Eddie_Bradford]

And what is voluntary socialism?

This is where a bunch of people who describe themselfs as 'socialists' come to the free state and form a 'commune' and volunarily give up all of their wealth and earnings to their collective group which they the distribute however they like.  They would form a little 'socialism' society within the capitalist market.  If you lived in the commune and decided it sucked then you could leave, or if you didn't live in it but wanted to you could join up if they allow you to.  This way people who really believe this system of society is best can form little communities of it.  Now frankly most people in this group probably don't think this would work but we also believe in free association and encourage people to do whatever they want as long as the don't harm anyone.

I look forward to hearing from others about how to ensure accountibility regarding environmental trespasses.

Indeed!  This is a great topic for debate and I too am interested in this.  Presumably you could simply go to court and sue to get the violator to stop polluting and for damages.  Now for air pollution you could probably do some carbon monoxide test or other test to evaluate the level of pollution on your land.  (There will probably need to be some level of tollerance for air pollution so that people could have a fire or grill or drive a car) but if there is a noticable spike in pollutants in the air on a daily basis I'd think you could easily sue to get them to stop and/or for damages.  This is an extremely property rights sensitive approach which may be very impracticle in some cases.  Another way to approach the problem is to decide as a region how much to charge for the commodity of 'using' clean air.  We could set a standard rate and then you'd have to pay x for you car pollution and companies that polluted would have to pay the same going rate to pollute the air.  I don't know though ideas anyone?
-Eddie

[Dex Sinister]

And what is voluntary socialism?

This is where a bunch of people who describe themselves as 'socialists' come to the free state and form a 'commune'... <snip> ...Now frankly most people in this group probably don't think this would work but we also believe in free association and encourage people to do whatever they want as long as the don't harm anyone.

Actually, America has a fairly long history of such experiments, with Oneida (yes, the silverware people) probably being the most famous. Most have been religious in nature, but socialist-communitarian none the less. Generally they dissolved by the 2nd generation, but some not. Some also believed in abstinance, which makes sustainability a problem. The Kibutz system in Israel works fine too.

The key is, socialism doesn't tend to work without an environment of capitalism surrounding it. However, given that environment, small socialist groups work just fine. After all, every family is essentially socialist in operation, so there's little reason you can't multiply that by 5 or 10 without running into much of a problem.

Dex }:>=-  

[Dex Sinister]

My husband joined this project with me.  He's a hard-core socialist.  I'm hoping to prove that freedom and socialism can coexist on a voluntary basis.

And what is he hoping to prove, if I might ask?

Dex }:>=-

[Elizabeth]

Well this is one kind of person that is in the free state project.  I guess if I were to label myself I would call myself an agnostic, social libertarian, self-sustainabilitarian, globalist (as in, a free globe for all) environmentalist, pacifist, humanist, gamer

Antayla, a belated welcome.  I agree with Eddie, it's great to see some diverse viewpoints in the group.  How did you get to libertarianism?

As for communalism, I myself have been for years interested in the "cohousing" concept:
http://www.cohousing.org/
and have always wanted to live in a small community with like-minded people.  I hope that the FSP will afford me that opportunity.

As for spouses requiring conversion, my husband is a conservative, but I'm working on him.  In 5 years, he's come around on a lot of issues (and I've come around on a few, too).

[cathleeninsc]

Let me get this straight. Voluntary socialism in the FSP would be a group of people who choose not to take on the personal responsibility of libertarianism but cede it to a governing body. This entity has all the rights, responsibilities and liberties available in the FSP.

How do single purpose co-ops fit into the picture?

Cathleen in SC

[percy, aka tntsmum]

Let me get this straight. Voluntary socialism in the FSP would be a group of people who choose not to take on the personal responsibility of libertarianism but cede it to a governing body. This entity has all the rights, responsibilities and liberties available in the FSP.

How do single purpose co-ops fit into the picture?

Cathleen in SC

Amen,.... I've spent a great deal of time trying to understand this concept of bringing socialism to the Free State and it simply doesn't make sense to me. I understand that they claim to desire only a self-contained socialist community where they all agree the needs of the collective supercede the needs and rights of the individual, however...... If one is truly of this mindset, why come to the FreeState where we are attempting the complete reverse? Hell, you're already 50 to 75% of the way to socialism in the States as it is, I would advise that you wait a few more years, stay put where you are... socialism should be in full swing before you know it!
I am quite agreeable to people living their lives as they see fit BUT, I have great reservations about setting up socialist communes in the Free State. I don't know that this would be beneficial to either the socialists or those who desire freedom and independance, free from demands that we all serve the collective. And no, I am not forgetting that the claimed desire is to simply set up self contained socialist communes.
Quite honestly, let us ask ourselves... If those who feel that the needs & rights of the individual are subserviant to the needs of the collective, when they vote their conscience, what will happen when we try to implement reform through voting?
Please, if I have not thought this out thoroughly, someone let me know where I may be going wrong in my thought process. I truly do not want to sound unkind but I simply cannot get past this paradox.

[Eddie_Bradford]

I would content that most liberals and socialist in the US are really just angry at rich people and they want to take their money.  Sometimes they'll make the excuse that they want to give that money to poor people to get sympathy but whatever the reason they want to take money from rich people more than they want to give it to poor people.  Anyway I agree most socialists wouldn't like our state but I think some would.  I think there are socialist who respect individual rights, but they believe that a society where people give up their property to the good of the whole will create a better society than when this isn't done.  In addition the kinds of socialists that would prefer us would probably believe something like this.
1. personal freedom socialism as opposed to athoritarian socialism
2. Must strongly believe in the principle of voluntary association.
3. probably think that communal approach to property is economically more competitive than the private approach.
4. wants government close to the people, local and mearly an extension of the community
5. Want a chance to try this social experiment without the government usurping tax revenue.

In another place I noted how midevil monks are the only good example I can think of communes working and this I believe is in large part to voluntary associations.  Again I'm not saying these things will work but if you believe your society model will work the you shouldn't have to force people to be a part of it clear as that.
-Eddie
-Eddie

[debra]

Amen,.... I've spent a great deal of time trying to understand this concept of bringing socialism to the Free State and it simply doesn't make sense to me. I understand that they claim to desire only a self-contained socialist community where they all agree the needs of the collective supercede the needs and rights of the individual, however...... If one is truly of this mindset, why come to the FreeState where we are attempting the complete reverse?

So they can implement their version of socialism.  For instance, a religious commune, a group marriage, a "back to nature" commune, etc.

Hell, you're already 50 to 75% of the way to socialism in the States as it is, I would advise that you wait a few more years, stay put where you are... socialism should be in full swing before you know it!

That doesn't even make sense. Take for example a small group of 30 people. They want to form a strict religious commune, with prayer twice daily, 10% tithing of income, church for 3 hours on Sunday, no dancing, no swearing, etc.  Can these 30 people change the laws of the US so that everyone around them follows these rules? Of course not. But in the Free State, they can form a little walled community that provides its own schooling, own internal welfare, and insists the moral codes be followed as well. THIS is voluntary socialism; giving up VOLUNTARILY for the good of a *select* group.

I am quite agreeable to people living their lives as they see fit BUT, I have great reservations about setting up socialist communes in the Free State.

Would you hold a gun to their heads to stop them? If you think "there oughta be a law against it", that's exactly what you're advocating.

I don't know that this would be beneficial to either the socialists

And precisely what are you advocating, when you are presuming to decide what would beneficial to "the socialists"? Shouldn't THEY be allowed to decide what is most beneficial?

or those who desire freedom and independance, free from demands that we all serve the collective. And no, I am not forgetting that the claimed desire is to simply set up self contained socialist communes.

Just because they want to live their lives a certain way does NOT necessarily mean that they will insist on everyone else doing the same.  

Quite honestly, let us ask ourselves... If those who feel that the needs & rights of the individual are subserviant to the needs of the collective, when they vote their conscience, what will happen when we try to implement reform through voting?

If we don't have enough people to overcome those votes, we lose.  But if out of fear of losing we start deciding who will be allowed to voluntary associate, and use the power of the state to enforce it, we've already lost. Besides, how are you doing to determine if a particular group of people is a "socialist commune?" Interviews? Socialism police?

Please, if I have not thought this out thoroughly, someone let me know where I may be going wrong in my thought process. I truly do not want to sound unkind but I simply cannot get past this paradox.

Break it down to its simplist form. In a Free State, socialists communes may form. You may not like it. But are you willing to use force to prevent them from doing so?

[stephani]

Debra, you're awesome.  That's exactly how I would have responded to that, except that you beat me to it!  We all have to stay open-minded.  We need to all realize that there will probably be QUITE a few groups of people looking forward to the Free State as a potential launch pad for all sorts of "political and social experimentation".