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[phylinidaho]

Bravo to all of you for helping the first domino to fall. I still yet may join in, but I still hold out hope for the nation as a whole. P.S. that is why I get so rattled when I read about talk of secession! I havn't given up on the other 49!

It was my understanding when I signed up that we hope to set an example for the rest of the country. Any talk of secession (IMO) is only as a last resort, and intended more to shake up the national government and make it realize that a return to constitutional principles is necessary.

[antayla]

I guess I don't think that it's too late to save the US, but I think there are a lot of people in the United states that are happy with their current system of government... at least they are willing to give up responsibility in order to have a big government to take care of them.  FSP as advertised  says "liberty in our lifetime."  maybe someday the United States will become all that we hope it could be but we don't have the time to waste... besides the United States is doing a lot of really evil things...  Or should I say greedy things.  Even if we do get freedom in our country, it is unlikely that the US will quit warring on these little third world countries in order to strip their countries of all their resources and virtually enslave their people.  I'm tired of being part of a country that kills people for their stuff, allows multinational corporations to dictate policy, and takes the power to decide destiny out of the hands of the people who are living it.  There are times for military action, but if I'm going to fight a war, I would rather pick up a weapon myself and fight rather than have the government buy soldiers to fight in my name.  of course I also think that most war is entirely preventable, but we do live in reality after all

as to signing up / moving out... well, I don't make promises I won't/can't keep.  but I understand that point...  It would be a sad thing if half our people didn't show up

[phylinidaho]

as to signing up / moving out... well, I don't make promises I won't/can't keep.  but I understand that point...  It would be a sad thing if half our people didn't show up

Question: Why do you show up as "FSP Member" if you are reluctant to sign up?

[antayla]

Question: Why do you show up as "FSP Member" if you are reluctant to sign up?

I'm not reluctant.  I'm just recognizing that there are risks.  And I've already signed up.

[TomPaine]

I'm anxious to dive in. I consider myself to be libertarian, but not an anarchist. I feel that some taxes are necessary to promote the general welfare, and provide for the common defense. I'm tired of giving the lions share of my earnings to a government that is only interested in expanding itself. In short, I see my country collapsing in on itself, and I'm pissed because there's nothing I can do to stop it. Then again, maybe   WE  can do something about it.

[Doc]

I still hold out hope for the nation as a whole. P.S. that is why I get so rattled when I read about talk of secession! I havn't given up on the other 49!

I am a lifelong Arizona desert rat. I have purchased the property of my dreams far out on a desert hillside where I hope to live out my life.

At the same time, if I have to move to a cold place to gain liberty, then that is exactly what I will do.

What I'm hoping is that once a Free State is established, its freedom will appear almost irresistable -- especially to citizens of western states such as Arizona. That way, I can both be free and live in the place and in the manner I really want.

Barring that, believe that I will be looking into the residency laws of our chosen state *very closely*, with a view to spending as much time in my home state as possible yet still be a citizen of whatever state ends up becoming the Free State. (Or, *the first* Free State, as I prefer to think of it!)

Are there others in the project thinking along these lines?

[Steve]

In answer to the thread topic question, "What type of people are in the FSP?", I have found that the vast majority of posters (who may or may not be representative of the members) are mainstream libertarians with slightly right-wing leanings but tolerant toward left-libertarian issues.  There have been relatively few ill-humored, dogmatic posters.  Personally, I am a half-black, part-native-american, atheist, nursed-on-Cato-policy-reports, evolutionary anarcho-capitalist from California.  Though I am more concerned about left-libertarian issues (and also taxes!), I have had little ideological disagreement with any of our comrades.

The most significant division I have seen so far here is between those favoring large, empty, rural, western states and those favoring small, denser, more urban northeastern states.  There is a slight political correlation here similar to the voting split in the 2000 election.  I do hope that the chosen state will have both significant urban areas and forests and fields for hunting.

On the topic of local socialism, the operative word is SUBSIDIARITY, which is used a lot here in Europe, where they are having similar constitutional discussions to those in the US a couple centuries ago.  Subsidiarity means deciding questions at the lowest appropriate level: federal, national, regional, local, community, family, individual.  At a low (local-community) level, socialism is supported by freedom of association.  At a higher level, when one can no longer easily move to escape it, socialism becomes tyranny.

[pitterpat]

  My husband and I just found out about the FSP.  We have been reading and researching ever since.  And up until tonight, I have not had any reservations about picking up my life and moving to wherever we all decide to make a stand.  But now I'm confused      

You see, I was under the impression that we were going to be involved in the FSP to recupperate our freedom.  Not flaunt it to the rest of the country.  What I mean by that is I thought we were going to try and get back the freedoms that our fore fathers fought and died for!  But from what I've been reading, everyone is more interested in starting their own communes and little communities instead of keeping their eyes on that target.  But then again, I may have completely misunderstood the whole reason for the FSP then.  

Also, it seems that everyone is forgetting that when we all move to the Free State, we will be moving into cities/towns/communities that are already living under the government as it is now.  It is going to take time to change all of that.  Many many years!  That's what the committment is for.  If we go in there and try and just take over....we'll be the laugh of the whole country instead of the hope of this great nation.  

[Steve]

I agree with Mouseborg, and would add that to get a real feeling even for the minority of active posters, you have to read many months worth of posting.  People join the FSP, post excitedly for a few weeks, and then calm down and go about their normal lives.  Pay attention to the general discussion, and ignore the noise, which has included (very little really) talk of violence, secession, racism, and recently socialism.

Anyway, we should be keeping our eyes on the prize, and talking more practical strategy and less about theory, if we really want to make this happen.  Personally, I have invested too much time and money already for failure to be acceptable.

We need to keep reapeating that the mission of the FSP is merely to get 20K libertarians to move to single place, so that their voices will be heard.  What they then say and do is then their business, but you can predict that it will be the usual libertarian stuff.

[Bill]

Pay attention to the general discussion, and ignore the noise, which has included (very little really) talk of violence, secession, racism, and recently socialism.

You said it, Steve. I can back you up on this. At first, I was somewhat shocked about some of the reactionary/alarmist/militant rhetoric that I saw some participants spewing, and still are spewing in some cases. But for the most part now, I see the consistent remarks of a core few key people standing out amongst these very occasional outbursts.

Anyway, we should be keeping our eyes on the prize, and talking more practical strategy and less about theory, if we really want to make this happen. We need to keep reapeating that the mission of the FSP is merely to get 20K libertarians to move to single place, so that their voices will be heard.  What they then say and do is then their business, but you can predict that it will be the usual libertarian stuff.

Thanks for the reality check! I am not yet a member (maybe soon) but am very excited about the mechanics of what to do once the BIG MOVE actually takes place: How will we accomplish policy changes, win city councils, increase voter registration, achieve permanent party status, overcome ballot access barriers, etc..... but I have found myself reacting to secessionists and militia types screaming about the violent crushing of our "rebellion" if we should dare to try it. I think I'm through feeding those fires!

[antayla]

talk of violence, secession, racism, and recently socialism.

I never suggested that the free state be socialist.  I just see that the enemies of freedom are more than governmental, and we need to protect ourselves from corporate influence on education, health care, etc.  I want there to be alternatives to corporate schools (which you know they will start) when people don't have time to teach their own kids.  

But you are right, we need more people, and that should be our first concern.  But we do need people to know what kind of topics and controversies they will be working with, because no one wants to commit without knowing what the risks are.

[admin]

The way you protect yourself from a corporation is to take your business elsewhere.

Charles

[Mega Joule]

author=pitterpat
My husband and I just found out about the FSP.  We have been reading and researching ever since.  And up until tonight, I have not had any reservations about picking up my life and moving to wherever we all decide to make a stand.  But now I'm confused      

Please keep in mind that many of the posts you see do not actually represent the FSP... Some are actually quite the opposite of what the FSPs stated purpose is, especially those promoting violent approaches.

We definitely are not violent.  We are quite the opposite, as we want to promote letting everyone have the freedom to do as they see fit provided do no harm to others.

As often happens, the vast majority of posting, especially the loudest posting, is done by a very small minority.

Keep in mind that this particular format of forum is fairly new to this group and that the group is growing, so naturally there is a great deal of discussion, often on ideas that have not been hashed out, at least by the newer members.

Also, in some cases, I suspect a few are just blowing off steam, or stating how they think the ideal world should be.

Indeed!  Ideology is healthy and productive.  We will have to settle down to practical issues when we reach 20,000 and actually begin to work within a state, but we will have no idea which directions we want to go if we do not spend some time with our noses to the philosophical grindstone determining which issues are most important to our ultimate success.  

Much is obviously pie in the sky stuff, and as such is simply running in intellectual circles, but for some, it is great excercise, and keeps them out of the hair of people who need to get things done.

Productive minds require exercise.  If you think some of us “noisy ones” out here may seem to represent a radical fringe, well that’s where you are right.  Like I always say, “Without the fringe how will you know where the middle is?”

The folks that are genuinely serious about follow through are, I suspect, going to turn out to be, for the most part, the more level headed sort, who can make concrete plans and carry those out.

One can simultaneously be an outspoken element of the radical fringe and a follow-through sort.

The louder ones... well, they are likely to still be doing precisely what they are doing presently when that time comes & passes.  

“He don’t know me very well do he.”
Tweety Bird


Oh BTW, don’t you think the “Give me liberty or give my death” line was a bit outspoken?  I count myself in good company with radicals and rebels past and present.

Meg

[Dex Sinister]

As often happens, the vast majority of posting, especially the loudest posting, is done by a very small minority. I expect a few will be weeded out as time passes, so the various forums serve a prudent purpose, no matter how far out there some may seem.  

And also bear in mind that even the most outspoken of posters pause every so often to remind the people that they speak with that they support and defend the rights of others to disagree with them, or order their lives differently.

Don't be too rattled, Pitterpat - all it proves is that people who love freedom span an interesting range of likes and dislikes. But we're all here together to support each other's freedom to do so.

Dex }:>=-

[Byron]

Me?  I haven't committed yet.  Need to have a better idea on the time line.  I have prior committments...like my elderly sick mother which I will fulfill.  Once that is out of the way, I'll move...anywhere...for the chance of freedom.

Professionally, I'm an emergency registered nurse.  The demographics in all areas of the US point towards my making a good living wherever there are sick people or people who don't read the directions on machinery.

Politically, I'm a rational anarchist as defined by Robert Heinlein.  I don't need a government to tell me what to do.
The reason that I do not commit murder, rape, robbery or fraud has nothing to do with the laws against these acts.  However, I'm rational about it.  I realize that there are those among us who do, in fact, need a government...as a security blanket, if nothing more.  Those laws that I find tolerable...I will tolerate.  Those I find intolerable, I will ignore as far as possible.