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Author Topic: American Haters  (Read 21199 times)

<Patrick>

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Re:American Haters
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2004, 08:19:41 pm »

Patrick wrote:
Quote
anyone who wants Americans dead wants me and the ones I love dead.

Are you suggesting, that because someone levies threats, that person deserves to be destroyed?

Are you suggesting that those "who want Americans dead" should be killed, even though they've done no more than speak about it?

If I say that I'm going to kill your family, does that give you the right to kill me first, even though I've done nothing?

If so, clearly you believe in the initiation of force, and I question why you are a member of the FSP.

Ian

I'm suggesting nothing. I'll flat out say it!

If you say you want to kill my family and you mean it - I'm not waiting around for you to do it - I'll shoot first.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2004, 06:11:06 pm by <Patrick> »
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FTL_Ian

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Re:American Haters
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2004, 10:11:25 pm »

Quote
If you say you want to kill my family and you mean it, I'm not waiting around for you to do it - I'll shoot first.

That would make you a murderer in the first degree.

By the way, who decides whether or not I "mean it"?

You?  An arbitration panel?  George Bush?

I sure hope it's not you, because you're way too emotional to be handling weaponry.
Ian
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<Patrick>

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Re:American Haters
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2004, 10:29:34 pm »

Quote
If you say you want to kill my family and you mean it, I'm not waiting around for you to do it - I'll shoot first.

That would make you a murderer in the first degree.

By the way, who decides whether or not I "mean it"?

You?  An arbitration panel?  George Bush?

I sure hope it's not you, because you're way too emotional to be handling weaponry.
Ian

It's idiotic to take the ZAP, out of context, as a floating abstraction that must be obeyed no matter what - even at the cost of your own life.
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FTL_Ian

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Re:American Haters
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2004, 04:33:51 pm »

Quote
It's idiotic to take the ZAP, out of context, as a floating abstraction that must be obeyed no matter what - even at the cost of your own life.

"Idiotic"?  Clearly you're the expert on all things libertarian.  You win!


Okay.. just kidding.  Despite the fact that you ignored my questions, I'll still address what you said.

There's nothing abstract about this:
If someone threatens with words, one cannot respond with violence.
If someone threatens with violence, force can then be applied in self-defense.
If someone commits an act of violence and gets away with it, retribution is not an option, as it will simply continue the cycle of violence.

Just because you don't get the Zero Aggression Principle, doesn't mean that I'm an idiot.

Best Regards,
Ian
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<Patrick>

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Re:American Haters
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2004, 05:14:52 pm »

Yes, I "get" the ZAP. Do you?  ;)

First of all, what is it you subordinate to what? In other words, what is the more fundamental value: YOUR LIFE or the Zero Aggression Principle? If you do not employ the ZAP in order to benefit your life—but would follow the ZAP no matter what the situation and what the consequences—then you have inverted your moral priorities.

What is ZAP? It is a moral principle. But what is the purpose of moral principles? Their purpose is to guide one's actions to benefit one’s life.

All moral principles should be understood in the proper context. You can't just say: "Thou shalt not initiate force—EVER." To do so would create a principle without any relation to reality and to drop the context that makes the principle valid in the first place. The context of ZAP is that it is a specific guide to social interaction. It tells us how to live in harmony with other people and that to do so is beneficial to one's life.

It is in one's own self interest to live in peace with others. It is to mutual advantage for all parties to agree not to initiate force against each other. But when someone says "I'm going to kill you," and I have cause to believe he means it, I would not think to myself: "Thou shalt not initiate force—EVER." I would realize that the ZAP is a social principle that only serves to benefit my life IF the other party also agrees to live in peace with me. If the other party makes threats on my life then he DOES NOT operate on the same premise of peace and harmony of interests. The context that validates the ZAP no longer exists in this situation. I owe him no quarter.

Take another example. It would be a mistake to say that to tell a lie is ALWAYS wrong. To do so would be to create a floating abstraction with no tie to any specific reality. Again, the moral principle that to tell a lie is wrong is only valid in the proper context: to lie to someone to gain a value that one did not produce oneself from that person  is a form of theft: fraud.

However, this context does not exist when a thief demands to know where you are hiding your money. In this context, the principle does not apply. It is perfectly moral to lie in self-defense. You do not owe the thief the truth just as you do not owe the person who threatens your life the ZAP.

It makes no sense to wait until the person who threatens my life starts shooting to shoot back. I’d end up dead before I had the chance to defend myself—because I took the ZAP out of context as a sweeping commandment, rather than a guide to social interaction grounded in a specific context.
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<Patrick>

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Re:American Haters
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2004, 05:26:18 pm »

Quote
There's nothing abstract about this:

If someone threatens with words, one cannot respond with violence.

If someone threatens with violence, force can then be applied in self-defense.

If someone commits an act of violence and gets away with it, retribution is not an option, as it will simply continue the cycle of violence.

If the person really means it I most certainly should respond with violence when he verbally threatens me. I will not put myself in the ridiculous position of waiting for his bullet to be in my chest before I raise a hand to stop him. Like I said, I don't take the ZAP as a sweeping commandment detached from context. The moment he threatens my life, the context that makes the ZAP possible between us no longer exists.

To answer you previous question as to who decides if the person making threats really "meant it," the answer is: the person being threatened.

It is HIS own life (or the lives of his loved ones) that is being threatened and it is HIS own life that he ought to protect.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2004, 06:00:19 pm by <Patrick> »
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
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FTL_Ian

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Re:American Haters
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2004, 06:12:05 pm »

Quote
If the person really means it I most certainly should respond with violence when he verbally threatens me. I will not put myself in the ridiculous position of waiting for his bullet to be in my chest before I raise a hand to stop him.

Verbal threats are just words.  A brandished weapon is different, hence:
"If someone threatens with violence, force can then be applied in self-defense."

In regards to your earlier "lying" example, I completely agree.  However, to kill someone in retribution for a simple threat is MURDER, no matter what scholarly blather you have to say about your choice.

Regards,
Ian
« Last Edit: May 25, 2004, 06:13:58 pm by FTL_Ian »
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<Patrick>

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Re:American Haters
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2004, 06:37:25 pm »

Quote
If the person really means it I most certainly should respond with violence when he verbally threatens me. I will not put myself in the ridiculous position of waiting for his bullet to be in my chest before I raise a hand to stop him.

Verbal threats are just words.  A brandished weapon is different, hence:
"If someone threatens with violence, force can then be applied in self-defense."

In regards to your earlier "lying" example, I completely agree.  However, to kill someone in retribution for a simple threat is MURDER, no matter what scholarly blather you have to say about your choice.

Regards,
Ian

Did you actually READ what I posted before you concluded that it was just "scholarly blather?" Why don't you specifically explain what you think is wrong with my arguments instead of just dismissing them?

My life is of supreme value to me. If someone threatens my life I consider that grounds to defend myself. How hard is that to grasp?
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FTL_Ian

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Re:American Haters
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2004, 09:15:46 pm »

Did you actually READ what I posted before you concluded that it was just "scholarly blather?" Why don't you specifically explain what you think is wrong with my arguments instead of just dismissing them?

My life is of supreme value to me. If someone threatens my life I consider that grounds to defend myself. How hard is that to grasp?

I sure did read it.  It doesn't excuse murder.

It's not hard to grasp your concepts.  You're trigger happy and prone to violence.  Until you can learn how to handle weaponry responsibly, I suggest you stick to cap guns.

Regards,
Ian
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<Patrick>

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Re:American Haters
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2004, 10:21:34 pm »

Did you actually READ what I posted before you concluded that it was just "scholarly blather?" Why don't you specifically explain what you think is wrong with my arguments instead of just dismissing them?

My life is of supreme value to me. If someone threatens my life I consider that grounds to defend myself. How hard is that to grasp?

I sure did read it.  It doesn't excuse murder.

It's not hard to grasp your concepts.  You're trigger happy and prone to violence.  Until you can learn how to handle weaponry responsibly, I suggest you stick to cap guns.

Regards,
Ian

You're an idiot.

Goodbye. ;)
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org
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