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Author Topic: Was thinking of joining.. but.  (Read 5082 times)

metalgrid

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Was thinking of joining.. but.
« on: March 24, 2004, 07:16:42 pm »

Card carrying libertarian here (but only scoring 111 in the Libertarian test). I've been following the development of the FSP since I first read about it on slashdot and had my mind set on joining in some day (although I am loathed to sell our beachfront property), but I have a few reservations/questions.

I currently live in Boston, MA. I am gay and so is my husband-to-be of 10+ years. We intend to get married in MA when May rolls around, but it turns out that it won't be recognized in NH.

He's also staunchly Democrat (scoring only in the 60's in the Libertarian Purity test) with rather backward views on gun ownership. That isn't really a problem since I can live with that even though he refuses to let me keep a gun inside the house (the toolshed is not considered part of the house - thankfully).

We both work in Boston, to which we can commute should we move to NH, but in doing so, we end up paying taxes in MA, which means there is absolutely no benefit to us moving to NH other than for just an additional Libertarian vote which will get cancelled out with the accompanying Democratic vote.

Consequently, I don't see how this could be a beneficial relationship for the FSP or us, although I wish it were different. Your thoughts regarding this would be much appreciated.
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SteveA

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2004, 07:36:22 pm »

The votes don't really cancel.  If half the population in N.H. was a member of the FSP .... :) :) :)  Well, you can imagine what we could do.

I don't think you have anything to worry about.
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SteveA

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2004, 07:47:49 pm »

Also, there are candidates in both parties that vary in their views on liberty and a 60 on that libertarian test isn't bad.  There are democrats with varied libertarian leanings (yeah, fewer to pick from though) and if he has to stick with democrats you can encourage him to look at the ones that are a bit less authoritarian.

Check out www.lfod.org.  ATR has been working a Liberty Index for candidates in N.H.
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FSPTalker

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2004, 07:55:44 pm »

First and most important is the community you would find here is far superior to what you have in Boston. Community was the primary reason I moved here in early December of last year. What a breath of fresh air it is to anyone who believes in the libertarian philosophy to be amoung a large and growing libertarian community. Second, by declaring your citizenship in the Free State, you will gain an immediate increase in your own level of personal liberty beyond what you have now.
As far as the marriage thing goes; marriage are not made by churches or states but by people who share a loving commitment to one another. Besides, the people make the law. Come here and help us change it.
Concerning guns, the act of living in a gun-liberal state could help your mate realize that the people who have the guns are the issue, not the guns themselves. I trust the armed populace of this state more than I would trust the armed populace of Boston. And I think you know who I mean.
Feel free to contact me, or better yet, come on up for a visit. My home in Goffstown is only about an hour away from Boston.
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metalgrid

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2004, 08:52:54 pm »

SteveA,

Check out www.lfod.org.  ATR has been working a Liberty Index for candidates in N.H.

That was a rapid response :)

I read through that link and it was very informative. However, this statement concerns me:

I omitted HB55, prohibiting government discrimination in hiring and education, because non-discrimination is more about equality than liberty, and this is the "Liberty Index," after all.

I fail to see how one can enjoy liberty without equality, and the followup news is not promising at all: http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=34422


FSPTalker,
Thank you for your response. It was only recently that we moved to our new house and we are still adjusting to our new neighbors. It is a great improvement from our previous house where we had the neighborhood association dictate everything we could and could not do or build on our property. Even the smallest steps towards freer living makes a big difference in ones enjoyment of their life.

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As far as the marriage thing goes; marriage are not made by churches or states but by people who share a loving commitment to one another.

Thank you for your words. I agree wholeheartedly. I will be keeping a close eye on the progress of SB427 when it goes to vote as it will influence our (mostly his) decision somewhat.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2004, 08:54:16 pm by metalgrid »
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SteveA

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2004, 09:15:20 pm »

Quote
SteveA,

Quote from: SteveA on Today at 06:47:49pm
Check out www.lfod.org.  ATR has been working a Liberty Index for candidates in N.H.

That was a rapid response

We're a motivated group ;D

Quote
I read through that link and it was very informative. However, this statement concerns me:

I omitted HB55, prohibiting government discrimination in hiring and education, because non-discrimination is more about equality than liberty, and this is the "Liberty Index," after all.

I fail to see how one can enjoy liberty without equality, and the followup news is not promising at all: http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=34422

I'm sure you know our general stance on the marriage issue - government shouldn't be in the business at all and excluding that it shouldn't be discriminatory.  The article at theunionleader.com wasn't in regard to HB55 though.

Initially HB55 was included in the liberty index as a pro-liberty vote but there were enough people who felt that it was just another attempt to mandate quotas for government hiring that it was tossed out.

In general we believe discrimination by individuals is part of their freedom but governmentally sanctioned discrimination isn't.  The reluctance a few people had was that these have become quotas and legalized reverse discrimination in many states.  We even had a proposition here in California that would have made it illegal for the government to ask you your race it's gotten that bad here.  Your race alone here counts for more than a perfect SAT score in regards to entering a college (20 points for hispanic/black applicant - caucasian/asian = 0 points.  Perfect SAT is worth 12).  People can sort this stuff out much easier than beaurocracies IMO.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2004, 09:18:14 pm by SteveA »
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atr

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2004, 09:44:44 am »

I read through that link and it was very informative. However, this statement concerns me:

I omitted HB55, prohibiting government discrimination in hiring and education, because non-discrimination is more about equality than liberty, and this is the "Liberty Index," after all.

I fail to see how one can enjoy liberty without equality, and the followup news is not promising at all: http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=34422

I abhor discrimintation. HB55 was intended to prevent the government from practicing affirmative action. I personally oppose affirmative action and support the legislation. However, I was not 100% confident I was able to answer this question affirmatively:
If a New Hampshire state university admitted another student instead of me solely because the other student had a different skin color, would that be an infringement on my liberty? It would be unjust and morally reprehensible, but I'm not totally sure it would violate my liberty.

Part of my reservations about including the bill involve the distinction between positive rights and negative rights. Employment and education provided by the government are positive rights, and speech and sexual relations are examples of negative rights. In other words, positive rights aren't really rights at all--they're entitlements. If the government discriminated in a negative right, e.g. by preventing black people from speaking in public, I would likely include in the Index a bill repealing that type of discrimination.

I was trying measure NH leglislators' support of liberty as accurately as possible. I omitted HB55 not because I disagreed with it, but because I only wanted to include legislation that very very clearly reflects an encroachment on or expansion of liberty. Some will disagree with my choices about what to include and what not to include, but I did the best that I could.
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metalgrid

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2004, 05:32:42 pm »

I abhor discrimintation. HB55 was intended to prevent the government from practicing affirmative action. I personally oppose affirmative action and support the legislation. However, I was not 100% confident I was able to answer this question affirmatively:
If a New Hampshire state university admitted another student instead of me solely because the other student had a different skin color, would that be an infringement on my liberty? It would be unjust and morally reprehensible, but I'm not totally sure it would violate my liberty.

I am not a big fan of affirmative action either. A person's qualifications should speak for them rather than their race or gender of attraction.

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Part of my reservations about including the bill involve the distinction between positive rights and negative rights. Employment and education provided by the government are positive rights, and speech and sexual relations are examples of negative rights. In other words, positive rights aren't really rights at all--they're entitlements. If the government discriminated in a negative right, e.g. by preventing black people from speaking in public, I would likely include in the Index a bill repealing that type of discrimination.

I understand this outlook as well. However, entitlements in themselves are the harbringers of a welfare system, and if they are not provided equally, they become a discrimantory fascist system. As much as I abhor it, I would much rather a socialist system in that case.

Quote
I was trying measure NH leglislators' support of liberty as accurately as possible. I omitted HB55 not because I disagreed with it, but because I only wanted to include legislation that very very clearly reflects an encroachment on or expansion of liberty. Some will disagree with my choices about what to include and what not to include, but I did the best that I could.

I now understand your reasoning. Would you treat SB427 in the same manner as it is an 'entitlement' to marriage?

SteveA,
Thanks for your response, and I wanted to wait for clarification on the issue from ATR before I responded to you :) I pretty much suspected what criteria was used in the rating, but could not be sure as I was trying to establish the similarity of 'priviledge' or in this case 'entitlement' with respect to employment, education and marriage by considering the effects of HB55 and SB427.

It just worries me sometimes that the FSP is setting the stage for a takeover by religious fundamentalists once the hard work of repealing laws has been accomplished.
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adonis79

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2004, 08:55:01 pm »

  My partner and I will be moving to NH in the next 2 years, hope to have you as a neighbor.
  We are also aware of the challenges we will face in finding equality under law in respect to our relationship in NH and throughout the nation. We will be active in seeking equal treatment by the state until such a time as the state gets out of everyones bedroom.  Times are changing and MA is a good indication of this, there is hope especially in the Free State, but not unless we get involved!
  I dont know what kind of work you do but I would love to remind you that FSP is a long term goal.  20,000 people (to start) are going to be looking to move their companies, find new work and new employies..  We should be able to create quite a boom in NH while increasing everyones take home if we work together with the FSP statment of intent.
  I for one dont own a gun and have never really been into the idea of guns  but now understand that guns are and easy scape goat for violence commited by people.  God forbid we blame the violence on the system that creates hard criminals out of kids, in state funded prison universities.  There is hope for your Hubbie as he learns to look beyond the fuzzy feel good of socialism to the larger picture presented within a Free (not in name and propaganda only) society.
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atr

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2004, 08:27:47 am »

I understand this outlook as well. However, entitlements in themselves are the harbringers of a welfare system, and if they are not provided equally, they become a discrimantory fascist system. As much as I abhor it, I would much rather a socialist system in that case.
Entitlements are discriminatory by design. A fully socialist or communist system is still redistributionist since some people produce more than others, and some people exploit government privileges more than others.

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I now understand your reasoning. Would you treat SB427 in the same manner as it is an 'entitlement' to marriage?
SB427 is not an entitlement to marriage. It's an attempt to reject recognition of a certain class of marriage entitlement granted by other states. I don't believe states should be bound to offer any entitlements offered by other states. To single out gay marriage as one entitlement that New Hampshire will not recognize is bigotry. Having said that, I will not be including SB427 in this year's Liberty Index. Unless liberty includes positive as well as negative rights, I don't believe there's a clear enough connection between SB427 and liberty.

Sadly, marriage has been distorted from a negative right that can be exercised by all into a privilege that the government permits some people to enjoy.

Again let me distinguish between my personal opinions, other people's personal opinions, and what I've included in the Liberty Index. There is disagreement among FSP members about how gay marriage should be handled. It seems clear to me that expanding a government privilege (marriage) from one group of people to two groups of people is not an increase in liberty, so it would not be included in the Liberty Index. Overall, is it an improvement? Would I vote in favor of it? I honestly don't know, but my inclination is to side against the people who oppose gay marriage out of bigotry. We tend to forget that single people (and people without children) are getting the shaft with or without government-certified gay marriage. The best solution is get rid of state recognition of marriage altogether, and to eliminate all the taxes for which state-approved marriage allows exemptions.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2004, 09:18:36 am »

Gays and lesbians should understand that they can achieve almost all the same benefits that marriage provides by organizing their relationship as a business partnership. About the only benefit this doesn't provide is the ability of one to name his or her partner as the recipient of their Social Security benefits.

If you are truly libertarian, this shouldn't be very important to you.
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mvpel

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2004, 11:47:46 am »

The same-sex marriage issue is at its core all about the entitlements - distributions from the Social Security Ponzi scheme using funds taken by force from the productive, deductions and exceptions on the unjust and immoral income tax, etc.

An old coworker of mine was an old San Francisco gay guy, and he and his partner had set up a variety of powers of attorney, partnerships, reciprocal beneficiary designations, and joint tenancy with rights of survivorship over the years.  For all legal intents and purposes, they were married.

They just had to file somewhat more complicated tax returns.
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metalgrid

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2004, 12:04:30 pm »

adonis79,
It is good to hear from someone in a similar situation. Times are views are indeed changing for the better in some areas. NHFTM released some rather heartening news regarding the citizenry of NH's views on the issue (http://www.nhftm.org/) 2 years, however, is too soon for us to move in. I was considering a 5 year timeframe within which to do it, subject to several changes. Although, if the Dominionists win a second term, we may just end up packing up and immigrating to Canada within a year instead.

ATR,
Thanks for the clarification. I respect your view on the matter.
Quote
We tend to forget that single people (and people without children) are getting the shaft with or without government-certified gay marriage. The best solution is get rid of state recognition of marriage altogether, and to eliminate all the taxes for which state-approved marriage allows exemptions.
I am well aware of this, as I was single once (and legally, still single) as well. Until deregulation of marriage occurs, I, however, intend to get my taxes worth in terms of 'entitlements'.

Mike Lorrey,
If I am taxed federally to provide welfare to married couples, no legal document will provide me with the benefits of not being taxed for another's priviledge.
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If you are truly libertarian, this shouldn't be very important to you.
I've heard that before. I only score a 111 on the test, so I wouldn't consider myself a purist in the matter. In the absence of absolute libertarian ideals, if I subsidize the government, I intend to get my money's worth of entitlements.

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2004, 12:23:22 pm »

I take the position that until marriage is abolished, any combination and number of genders should be allowed to marry.  There are quite a few things beyond the reach of contracts.  The best compromise I've seen yet is to replace marriage with civil unions for everybody with no restrictions.  The ideal that all libertarians agree on is to eliminate marriage and treat everyone as individuals under the law.
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adonis79

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Re:Was thinking of joining.. but.
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2004, 06:01:03 am »

  Good luck wherever the political climate will lead you!  I think Canada is a nice place but I hear the prepaid health care sucks  ;)
 keep in touch if the revolution gets to hot I may just jump the border and join you JK
  Really I think a five year plan is very responsible and there is no rush to the NH finish line, good planning will only allow you to contribute that much more in action and peace of mind.
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I have seen the freest among you wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff.
And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free when even the desire of freedom becomes a harness to you,  and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfillment.
Kahlil Gibran
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