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Author Topic: MT, ID, & WY climate + more  (Read 6938 times)

varrin

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MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« on: October 23, 2002, 02:46:13 pm »

Greetings from CA,

New poster here.  I haven't signed up yet as I am still researching a small handful of state issues.  One big one came up, though, and I haven't heard as much weight placed on it as I think maybe should be.

Basically the conversation went like this:

Her:  "All those states are cold"
Me:  "Yeah, I know.  But some are better than others"
Her:  "I just don't want a lot of snow.  Definately nothing more than Cincinnati"  (we lived there for a few years, left partly because of the weather)
Me:  "If there's someplace not so miserable, would it be worth it to you to have some real freedom?"
Her:  "Maybe"

So that's the deal.  For some people (like my wife), the answer is maybe if the weather's tolerable, but definateley not if the weather's lousy.  NH seems popular among posters but it is absolultely off limits for us (too much snow).  The only eastern state that's under consideration at this point is DE.  I haven't finished doing my homework about DE, so I'm not even sure if it will make the grade.  That leaves us with the western states.

http://www.climatesource.com/cd11/snow_us.gif

This is an annual average snowfall map.  I don't know exactly the ranges for each color but it looks like the greens are in the 20-30 inch range, give or take and the purples are up in the 60 or 70-90 or 100 range.  You can figure out the rest from looking at it.

The bottom line is, ID is clearly the winner from a weather standpoint.  Boise is in the good weather part of Idaho.  It gets 20.5 inches of snow per year, a little under 12 inches of precip (rain, presumably), and has an average annual temp of over 50 degrees.  That makes it the only city that we could qualify to live in (based on air travel issues with my job) that has less snowfall than Cincinnati.  Yes, my wife is just that stubborn.

Does that mean MT is out?  Maybe not.  But Idaho definately has advantages from our perspective.   There is a greater diversity of weather, which will appeal to a larger percentage of people (DE has no weather diversity).  The geography is much more diverse, the elections are nearly 30% cheaper, the job growth is projected to be more than double of MT (doesn't make a difference to me since I'll keep my current job),  is less dependant on Federal funds, and has a high percentage of voters who favor conservative and libertarian presidentail candidates.  Of course, it also has that Canadian border which, combined with the weather issues, makes it a much stronger candidate than WY (IMO).

There's one other major disadvantage to NH as I see it.  So far, I haven't seen this mentioned.  The NH federal dollar received to taxed ratio is significantly less than 1.  That means that NH gets back fewer federal dollars than it gives.  While that seems good  (less federally dependant), it could actually be a significant disadvantage.   Imagine our federal representatives going to Washington to negotiate a no-tax for no-benefit exchange.  They won't be well received if they're from NH because it's a bad deal for the federal government (they'll lose $.29 for every dollar in a complete exchange).  On the other hand, if they're from ID, they make $.24 for every dollar in a complete exchange.  While that's a cost to us, it would make it more likely that we'll be successful at completing negotiations for more economic autonomy.  What about MT?  Like ID, it's a good deal for the feds.   Except, it's worse for us.  Instead of losing only $.24 per dollar, we'll lose $.67 per dollar.  That's cost that ultimately will affect our economy.

Okay, gotta run...   Comments are, of course, welcome ;-)

V-

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Shayde

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Re:MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2002, 04:57:53 pm »

Eastern Montana gets much less snow than Western Montana.  In Billings (which would fall into the sky blue color on the map) they don't get nearly as much as we do here in Butte.  It is also one of the larger cities in the state.
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Re:MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2002, 08:57:17 pm »

Varrin you wrote-
to negotiate a no-tax for no-benefit exchange.  They won't be well received if they're from NH because it's a bad deal for the federal government (they'll lose $.29 for every dollar in a complete exchange).  On the other hand, if they're from ID, they make $.24 for every dollar in a complete exchange.  While that's a cost to us, it would make it more likely that we'll be successful at completing negotiations for more economic autonomy.

There is really nothing to negotiate with the federal government.  They will withhold funds if you don't follow their guidelines.  SSI is a voluntary system (they had to make it voluntary cause it wouldn't pass constitutional muster) and Fed income tax is based on massive deception.  People pay because they are coerced by the IRS.  Even though it is unconstitutional, that isn't going to help you in a stacked courtroom.  

Although there have been some wins the government won't usually prosecute unless they are real confident of a win.  Quite a few people have been left alone by the feds when they realize that their potential victims are cognizant of their constitutional rights.  Check out Larken Rose or Howard Becrart websites they have pretty good info on it.  There are a lot of sites that have misleading or only partially accurate info.  The sites I mention stick to the constitution, Internal Revenue Code and Regs, and court cases to back up anything they say.

Hopefully in a free state we would have more opportunity to reclaim our constitutional rights.
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varrin

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Re:MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2002, 10:39:58 pm »

SSI is voluntary?  I don't think so...  At least from a practical standpoint.  But that was just an interesting aside anyway.

As to the weather issue, while there may be a place with less than 25 or 30 in/year of snow in MT, it isn't anywhere near a big(ger) city.  I have to live within a reasonable drive of an airport with service by at least 3 airlines (national or larger).  Hence, Missoula, bozeman and Billings are my options in Montana.  Billings is the best bet there but the snowfall averages are still significantly higher than in Boise which is warmer and has far superior air service.  

And no, not everyone thinks snow is fun.  Neither my wife and I care for snow.  I'd prefer to move to Las Vegas than someplace snowy.  In fact, we live in central CA now, where the average annual snowfall is .1" and the summertime average highs are in the high 90's.  I know we're not going to find that, but we could at least minimize the damage with a city like Boise.   MT is still better than NH or VT (totally out of the question), but why not go with the better job market (for those of you who actually care about that) and the more diverse weather and geography...

Just my thoughts......

V-

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sflorman

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Re:MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2002, 12:50:46 pm »

The Western states can get cold, but they don't stay cold for long.  Summer weather is typically dry and hot, which is a lot better than Minnesota's dry and humid, and they have a lot less snow than MN (my current location).  If we went with a middle ground like N or S Dakota (I vote SD for the Black Hills), I'd want to live in the Western, drier end of the state.
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Solitar

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Re:MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2002, 02:39:30 pm »

StPeter wrote this over on the State Climate thread
Quote
we're not running a country club here, we're trying to found a free society. Washington's army wasn't warm and comfy at Valley Forge. It seems to me that within reason the colder climates (and concomitant lower population densities, not to mention lack of attractiveness to your average busybody bureaucrat) would work better for us than states where comfort is so easy to come by. Climate may be one decision factor for some folks, but I see it as a personal preference and not a decision factor for the FSP per se. We need to be focused on the factors conducive to freedom, not comfort.
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PongGod

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Re:MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2002, 04:54:10 pm »

StPeter wrote this over on the State Climate thread
Quote
we're not running a country club here, we're trying to found a free society. Washington's army wasn't warm and comfy at Valley Forge. It seems to me that within reason the colder climates (and concomitant lower population densities, not to mention lack of attractiveness to your average busybody bureaucrat) would work better for us than states where comfort is so easy to come by. Climate may be one decision factor for some folks, but I see it as a personal preference and not a decision factor for the FSP per se. We need to be focused on the factors conducive to freedom, not comfort.

Hopefully the comfort we will find in living as free individuals should live will outweigh the lack of comfort provided by the weather.
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varrin

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Re:MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2002, 11:29:03 am »

Comfort is a factor for my family.  The wife has veto power on this one.  In my case, an overseas move would result in significantly more financial freedom than any of the US states would offer, even with the FSP.  My situation is unique, but since the Bahamas or Belize are far warmer than Wyoming or Alaska (or *anyplace* the FSP is considering), that becomes an issue for my family.

In fact, I'm not 'wimping out'.  I'm ready to go even farther than the FSP - overseas...

V-

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eoffshore

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Re:MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2003, 11:20:35 pm »

I think most easterners overestimate the harshness of the the climate out west. Yes it gets cold in the winter here in Wyoming, sometimes as cold as -30. But I've never been as chilled as in Kentucky visiting family over Thanksgiving one year when it was a humid 40. Yes we get snow here, the mountains (when we're lucky) get alot. But here in the Big Horn Basin, we get fewer inches of snow than back in Kentucky.
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Joe

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Re:MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2003, 02:44:56 am »

eoffshore is correct about Eastern climates being harsher than Western climates at equivalent or even more extreme temperatures.

I've spent nearly thirty years in north central Pennsylvania. I spent three years in northern Maine. I spent a year in the foothills just north of Colorado Springs. This year I'll have spent eighteen years high in the cold, wintry mountains of central Colorado. Thus I know of what I've experienced both east and west.

A week with temperatures in the teens here in the west is far more comfortable than a few soggy days in the thirties in the east.  On the other end of the thermometer I believe we all would admit that humid eastern seventies are far more uncomfortable than dry western nineties (though even they are uncomfortable for me and that's why I live at 10,000 feet where it rarely gets into the eighties).

So, to you easterners, take this advice from an ex-easterner...

Add at least ten degrees to the low end when you are considering western winter temperatures. I can guarantee that 20 degrees F. back east feels worse than zero here.

Remember too that southeast Wyoming has temperatures equivalent to Delaware and, given the lack of humidity, much more comfortable temperatures even in the worst of its winter compared to Delaware in the worst of its winter.
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freedomroad

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Re:MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2003, 03:08:47 am »

eoffshore is correct about Eastern climates being harsher than Western climates at equivalent or even more extreme temperatures.

Add at least ten degrees to the low end when you are considering western winter temperatures. I can guarantee that 20 degrees F. back east feels worse than zero here.

I friend from work is thinking about moving his family to WY or UT.  He went to Thermopolis WY last summer and he said it was over 100F for one day.  He said that 100F in WY felt cooler than 90F in Memphis TN.  He said some of the locals were complaining about the bad weather and he said it felt great.  When it is 100F in Memphis TN, almost no one even goes outside.

He is still thinking about moving but he has to wait awhile because of recent events (he is in the military).
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Robert H.

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Re:MT, ID, & WY climate + more
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2003, 07:47:40 am »

Moisture in the air does have a tendency to make temperatures feel more extreme, and the west's drier climate presents an advantage there.  Humidity also tends to make things mildew and rust faster.  

I would factor wind into the equation here as well when considering the western climate.  There's very little worse than hot, still air - unless you add humidity into the mix.  In those circumstances, a breeze can be a lifesaver, and the western states are known for being windy.  The east can be windy as well, especially along the coast, but then you have to put up with the stifling humidity in that salty air.  Living in Pensacola, Florida for several years hammered that lesson home very well for me.   :)
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