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Author Topic: Corporate/Industrial abuses  (Read 7376 times)

adam

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Corporate/Industrial abuses
« on: October 23, 2002, 01:58:06 am »

What would be the protection against a multinational corporation moving in and doing as it pleases once all of the deregulation and freetrade rights are in place?

Also are there essays or such about enviromental concerns in the freestate?

adam
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2002, 09:57:36 am »

Certainly government has a role in preventing corporations from fraud, stealing from their employees, and polluting.  Government has no role in controlling wages and prices, imposing safety guidelines, or otherwise interfering in everyday business decisions.  With strong constitutional prohibitions on specific government interventions, the problem of "corporate control" should disappear.  Namely, if corporations know they cannot obtain subsidies, there is no reason for them to lobby government.
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cathleeninsc

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2002, 08:04:23 am »

Independent research firms are very effective. Some I will pay for as a consumer and others firms will pay for in order to get the "approval stamp". I don't have to know the science and make my own determination, but I am willing to review the firm making the quality claims.

Cathleen in SC
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2002, 08:09:33 am »



Would this become a strict buyer beware situation, where each person would for instance need research & understand every 30+ syllable chemical compound used in a product so as to ensure their safety? Or would we individually pay an independant company for such research services, and of course hope that they weren't in collusion with any of the corps they were investigating?


I should think the latter.  Note that government already colludes with corporations to a large extent; it's even got a name, "regulatory capture."  At least with private watchdogs, they have a reputational and competitive incentive to stay on top of things.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

neutralbias

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2002, 09:16:36 pm »

Yes, this is my own absolute number one concern about the whole plan, which otherwise I think is admirably ballsy and which I don't doubt can actually work. It seems obvious to me at least that the welfare state largely arose in opposition to corporate despotism, as the public chose what was perceived as the lesser of two evils. After all, it's more fun to be on welfare than to be slaving 80 hours a week in a coal mine and living in a company town, even though there were fewer federal laws and regulations. I am worried this movement is intended as a haven for owners of existing large businesses or rich ex dot commers who simply won't have to work. What about an honest hard working poor person?
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neutralbias

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2002, 09:18:55 pm »

(oh and I personally consider slavery to be one of the forms of corporate despotism mentioned in my previous post. Certainly the anti-slavery cause, if only often used as a pretext to get popular support, allowed the federal govt to hugely expand it's powers.)
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2002, 09:45:38 pm »

Several points to make here... "Corporate despotism" was actually on the decline long before laws arose supposedly to curb it.  For example, child labor was almost nonexistent by the time child labor laws were passed.  The big period of government increase, the New Deal era, actually involved massive subsidies to business and the cartelization of industry.  FDR wanted to encourage businesses to collude and raise prices; he thought this would create more demand for labor and raise wages.  The crackpot economic theories behind the New Deal have now been completely discredited, of course.

Second, corporate abuses in the 19th and early 20th centuries have been greatly exaggerated.  Trusts like Standard Oil and US Steel actually brought about massive declines in prices and increases in supply, benefiting consumers.  Trusts *frequently* went bust during this period, demonstrating that they were inefficient and did not serve consumers.  Read Folsom's Myth of the Robber Barons for more info.

Third, the radical abolitionist movement was also radically libertarian.  People like William Lloyd Garrison, Frederick Douglass, and Lysander Spooner relied on libertarian, anti-statist ideas to make the case against slavery.  Today they would be prominent supporters of the Free State Project.  The War between the States, with its concomitant government interventions, was not necessary to end slavery and was a tragic waste of human life.  The radical abolitionists favored the secession of the North from the South and opposed the war of conquest that Lincoln perpetrated.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

JasonPSorens

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2002, 10:31:26 pm »

Oh yeah, I should point out that I'm the product of a dirt-poor family, am still living hand-to-mouth at the moment, and most of our Directors are likewise middle- or lower-middle-income working folks. ;)
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Johnny Liberty

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2002, 11:17:50 pm »

I find it interesting your judgement that the millions of slaves would have better endured another generation or two of slavery rather than fight for freedom in the Civil War. I wonder if you would make the same judgement if you and your kin were working as slaves on a rice plantation or railroad owned by another human being? American slaves were right to fight for their freedom in the civil war and I have yet to hear the p.c. revisionist arguments to convince me otherwise.  
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2002, 09:27:37 am »

Of course the slaves had the right to fight for freedom, but the war was not fought over slavery.  It was not right for the North to invade the South and kill hundreds of thousands of non-slave-owning Southern men.  I'm no Confederate apologist, but it is worth pointing out that there were some all-black regiments in the Confederate army, so not all slaves thought that what the North was doing was right.  Sometimes killing lots of people and causing massive destruction is not the just way to bring about social change.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Johnny Liberty

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2002, 03:40:25 pm »

The war was, at least in part, about slavery. This may not have beeen it's only, or even "major" cause, but it was a significant factor. There was slavery in the US before the Civil War and there was not after. This is an inconvenient fact of our (American) history. That there were injustices and contradictions in this war there is no doubt, but the fact remains tens of thousands of blacks fought on the side of the federal government vs. hundreds or less fighting on the Confederate side.

Moreover, this story of some significant number of black confederates seems to me to be largely  the sort of propoganda that becomes "truth" by being repeated often enough (the "big lie"). I did some reading on blacks working in the Confderate  army and most were in non-armed support positions. Many were slaves, i.e. coerced into laboring for the Confederate state. and few were armed. The number of armed black Confederate combatants was at most a hundred or so. This is in contrast to the tens of thousands armed blacks on the other side.

I don't want to debate the causes of the Civil War here, but neither am I going let go unchallenged interpetations of American history that discount the aspirations for liberty of the millions of people held as slaves.

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RidleyReport

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2002, 11:33:08 am »

Jason Sorens wrote:

<<People like William Lloyd Garrison, Frederick Douglass, and Lysander Spooner relied on libertarian, anti-statist ideas to make the case against slavery.>>

If people ever accuse us of having a racial separatist streak we ought to dig up some Douglas quotes in response; that guy rocked.


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neutralbias

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2002, 08:12:13 pm »

ok but all this is still a red herring, my real question is- is this a free state for real human beings or the virtual legal constructs known as corporations? big government is only one of the main opressors of civil liberties in america today, we could just be jumping back out of the frying pan and into the fire.
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neutralbias

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2002, 09:16:25 pm »

Well, given my (again admittedly limited and i would love to be set straight by somebody with authoritative knowledge or sources if i am wrong) understand, when corporations were initially created by the monarchy in england, they had EXTREMELY tight controls on them and in fact had to only be incorporated for a finite amount of time and acting towards a stated goal that was in their charter.

While i would not want a return to such draconian govt control of corporations because it swings the balance of power too far back the other way, something of that order certainly seems like it would be in line. Perhaps central government, corporations, and some as-yet-not-thought-of third entity could exist in a checks-and-balances system similar to that explicitly spelled out for the federal govt. in the US constitution.
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neutralbias

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Re:Corporate/Industrial abuses
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2002, 09:18:19 pm »

I specify a third party for the same reason that i suspect the founding fathers did, by the way. Having only two parties in opposition makes for a fundamentally unbalanced situation, eventually somebody will gain an advantage and it snowballs.
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