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Author Topic: How will we succeed if we all squabble  (Read 4011 times)

T_Paine

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How will we succeed if we all squabble
« on: March 16, 2004, 09:15:37 pm »

After reading posts from many topics, I have become impressed with the diversity represented by FSP members. I dare not say that I am a libertarian, ancap, Jeffersonian Contstitutionalist (though this comes the closest), etc; however I am for substantial reduction in governmental control.

Looking across history, I see a distinct trend that you, (or we if I decide to join) need to address and counter. With the fervent ideological beliefs represented here, it goes without saying that there is enough energy to accomplish whatever task is set before you. However, along with this and the vast chasm that separates our beliefs comes the potential of FSP not being able to form a strong enough political entity to enact any reforms. Looking at the history of any democratic or republican nation, one can see a similar trend taking place again and again. A political group bands together, gains some  power and then devolves due to minor differences in ideals.

FSP can not afford to do this! I love the diversity of beliefs represented here and sincerely believe that this in part will drive the success of such an adventure, but at the same time we need to have concrete common goals that we wish to achieve. We are still a minority. Even if we succeed in NH, we still would be but one state in 50... with our task just beginning . We cannot afford to squabble over theoretical points and be split into 3 or 4 different groups (at least not initially).

As weird as this may sound, we should take the formation of the Christian Church as a rough model for our development. Though we come from different backgrounds with different ideals, some common ground and goals need to be established.  We need to gain ground with each action, be uncomprimising in the defense of our beliefs, act as though the whole nation is watching us (they will be), and each act as a "prophet" of our common goals. Once we achieve a certain level of accomplishment, only then can we allow fierce competition among ourselves and fully express the wide range of beliefs we possess. (This, by the way, should be encouraged at this point.)

I believe this is a noble cause, and I hope to see "liberty in our lifetime"
« Last Edit: March 17, 2004, 05:38:02 pm by T_Paine »
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John M

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Re:How will we succeed if we all squabble
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2004, 04:19:54 pm »

I agree.

I lurked around on these boards for several weeks before I joined the FSP, and I had the same impression that you expressed, T_Paine.  But I decided to join anyway because I still think this is the best way to bring about a reduction in government.

I think debating the finer points of what a Free State utopia would look like is a waste of time given that the momentum of society is working against us.  We have a big task to accomplish and we cannot afford to waste energy arguing amongst ourselves.

We must stay focused on our goal of getting 20,000 liberty-minded people to commit to moving to NH, and then acutally following through with that commitment.
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kater

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Re:How will we succeed if we all squabble
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2004, 04:47:08 pm »

Amen.  (No religious connotation actually intended.)

As Dada Orwell used to say, "everybody go do something and then tell us about it!"
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penguinsscareme

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Re:How will we succeed if we all squabble
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2004, 05:09:14 pm »

I liked this thread better the first time I read it.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=12;action=display;threadid=6133

I have learned (thanks in part to kater) that trying to calm down the rabid hardliners is just about as pointless as trying to be one.

Andrew
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Stumpy

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Re:How will we succeed if we all squabble
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2004, 05:32:34 pm »

Some people at this forum, even some who are FSP members, seem incapable of doing anything other that arguing.

If you want to get anything done, just ignore them and drive on. Check out the Activist Center. Find something productive to do and do it.

Don’t let the chronic debaters pull you down. If you want Liberty, you will have to fight Statist and libertarians who wouldn’t know how to be constructive if a constructive plan sat on their nose and kicked them in the eye. As sad as I am to say it, I would be negligent not to point it out.

Ignore the chronic debaters and drive on.  ;)

Let’s continue towards the prize; LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIME. :)

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T_Paine

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Re:How will we succeed if we all squabble
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2004, 09:17:46 pm »

Penguins... I certainly wasn't trying to steal your glory. We are making similar points, however, my focus was and continues to be trying to pinpoint some plan for how FSP will develop once 20,000 get to NH. I have some ideas, and would be willing to discuss them. At the same time, I would like to hear how others expect things to unfold, even if it is simply a rough sketch.

I certainly think that while not everyone should relocate to the same area, a sizeable portion should relocate to a relatively sleepy town to dominate that area. It would give the FSP an area immediately under its comtrol, a place to act as a testing ground for possible initial deregulation FSP intends to extend to the rest of the state, and a community of mutual support and encouragement.

If someone can show me some sort of rough roadmap... I will be the next person to sign up as well as use whatever talents I may have to promote this exercise in Freedom.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2004, 09:22:09 pm by T_Paine »
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penguinsscareme

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Re:How will we succeed if we all squabble
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2004, 09:29:35 pm »

No problem, man!
As I understand it, once the deal is sealed and the porcupines migrate, the fsp disbands, at least officially.

Moving many people to one area to dominate in the local scene has been a very touchy subject all along.  Basically we try to stay away from such heavy handed tactics.  We don't want to be thought of as the Hell's Angels rollin' into town so lock up your doors and daughters.  There probably will be areas of concentration, but they will be areas where the idea of limited government already enjoys popularity.  So we will be there not to wrest political control away from the natives, but to add to an already existing condition.
The upshot is that once there, each porcupine finds his own way, whether by showing up to town meetings, or running for a seat in the state congress, or by writing letters to politicians and newspapers or a thousand other different ways to be an activist for limited government.
Rough enough?
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thrivetacobell

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Re:How will we succeed if we all squabble
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2004, 09:30:17 am »

Hello T_Paine

If you haven't checked it out yet, I'd say theres a fair explanation of the 'road map' the FSP is following in 'frequently asked questions'. It gives you the who, where, why's of things.

http://www.freestateproject.org/about/faq.jsp

If you can be more specific with what you want to learn, its quite likely someone will be able to direct you there.

Hope you decide to work towards taking your life into your own hands!
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J

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Re:How will we succeed if we all squabble
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2004, 09:30:27 pm »

After reading posts from many topics, I have become impressed with the diversity represented by FSP members. I dare not say that I am a libertarian, ancap, Jeffersonian Contstitutionalist (though this comes the closest), etc; however I am for substantial reduction in governmental control.

Looking across history, I see a distinct trend that you, (or we if I decide to join) need to address and counter. With the fervent ideological beliefs represented here, it goes without saying that there is enough energy to accomplish whatever task is set before you. However, along with this and the vast chasm that separates our beliefs comes the potential of FSP not being able to form a strong enough political entity to enact any reforms. Looking at the history of any democratic or republican nation, one can see a similar trend taking place again and again. A political group bands together, gains some  power and then devolves due to minor differences in ideals.

FSP can not afford to do this! I love the diversity of beliefs represented here and sincerely believe that this in part will drive the success of such an adventure, but at the same time we need to have concrete common goals that we wish to achieve. We are still a minority. Even if we succeed in NH, we still would be but one state in 50... with our task just beginning . We cannot afford to squabble over theoretical points and be split into 3 or 4 different groups (at least not initially).

As weird as this may sound, we should take the formation of the Christian Church as a rough model for our development. Though we come from different backgrounds with different ideals, some common ground and goals need to be established.  We need to gain ground with each action, be uncomprimising in the defense of our beliefs, act as though the whole nation is watching us (they will be), and each act as a "prophet" of our common goals. Once we achieve a certain level of accomplishment, only then can we allow fierce competition among ourselves and fully express the wide range of beliefs we possess. (This, by the way, should be encouraged at this point.)

I believe this is a noble cause, and I hope to see "liberty in our lifetime"


I honestly can't even tell the difference between those 3 political philosophies. What's the difference between an anarcho-capitalist, a libertarian and a Jeffersonian Constitutionalist? Maybe someone can explain it to me, but I thought they were all the same. Also, how do terms like neoliberal and classical liberal play into this? I'm not up on  political labels, as you can probably tell.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2004, 09:30:41 pm by J »
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RhythmStar

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Re:How will we succeed if we all squabble
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2004, 12:22:16 am »

>>the difference

1.  Anarcho-Capitalists do not make the existence and protection of inalienable human rights the basis of their philosophy.  Instead, they trust in the free market to optimize not only commercial transactions, but also human interactions usually today associated with rights.

2. Classical liberals, such as Thomas Jefferson and most Constitutionalists, do make the existence and protection of inalienable human rights the basis of their philosophy.  They believe that free humans band together to form governments for the purpose of securing those rights against both bad humans and the State.

3. Libertarians (big 'L') are registered members of the Libertarian Party.  

4. Libertarians (small 'L') are people who believe that force may only be justified to defend against force, or fraud.  This covers an enormous philosophical ground, from AnCaps to Classical Liberals and beyond, with most of the differentiation coming in how one defines 'force', 'fraud' and 'rights'.

Hope this helps.

RS
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Terry 1956

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Re:How will we succeed if we all squabble
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2004, 12:19:55 pm »

NH citzens have a small directline to the state government, each state representive represents around 3,000 people.If 1700 to 2000 of those are adult citizens who would care to pay any attention to government, find out what they want. Show them less costly and more effective ways of dealing with a problem through the market place and voluntery associations. Shoot to get at least a 85% vote for a state house representive and give the representive detailed instructions.
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