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Author Topic: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?  (Read 11322 times)

MaineShark

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Re: This is a side point ...
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2005, 05:22:59 pm »

Am I reading the second amendment wrong?

Not really.  Well, other than the fact that the first potion is a present participle, rather than a clause.

The first portion essentially is just commentary, making clear one of the most important reasons why "the right to keep and bear arms" should not be infringed.  It does not restrict that right, or say that there are not other reasons.

I know that there is a source somewhere that goes into greater detail.  I'll see if I can find it.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

MaineShark

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2005, 05:38:42 pm »

Found it: The Unabridged Second Amendment.

The analogy used is a good one.

Quote
"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed."

I've actually swayed several people with that one.  It won't work on irrational hoplophobes, but rational people will be able to see that it is an analogous sentence, and yet accept that it is clearly nonsensical to apply the sort of "reasonable restrictions" that the gun-grabbers favor, when they are being applied to "the right to keep and read books."

Irrational people will say "but guns are different."  But rational people will realize that they had been prejudiced, and will seek to eliminate that prejudice, instead of hiding behind it...

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

KBCraig

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Re: This is a side point ...
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2005, 08:02:14 pm »

But I've found very, very few people who agree with me on this one.

Add one who agrees.

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Since the purpose of the right to bear arms is to engage in warfare ... it would seem to me that individuals should be able to own weapons of warfare.  Not just rifles and semi-automatic weapons.  (Those won't help me against a bomber.)  We should be allowed to own tanks, bombers, anti-aircraft weaponry, missiles, even weapons of mass destruction.

That was the common understanding throughout the nation until 1865. After then, states and localities began restricting carry of personal firearms by "undesirables" (blacks, Jews, Irish, non-Irish... take your pick), right up to the Sullivan Act of 1911.

Until the National Firearms Act of 1934, such laws were local, and only applied to concealable guns. But NFA'34 suddenly applied a nationwide restriction to a much broader range of firearms, including machineguns and cannons, which were the very definition of "suitable for a militia". The Gun Control Act of 1968 continued the trend away from military use, requiring a "sporting use" for imported arms.

And then we come to the idiocy of the "Assault Weapons Ban" (thankfully sunsetted into oblivion). Anti-gun people have managed to simultaneously seek to outlaw handguns, because they're not military weapons, and "assault" weapons, because they are. They keep straight faces while arguing against guns that are too small, and those that are too big. They argue that $7,000 single-shot rifles firing the .50 BMG round (at $7 a pop) are the choice of criminals, despite their not having been used in a single criminal act. Small, functional, affordable guns are dangerously conceable and far too available. Scoped deer rifles are "dangerous sniper weapons" if they're in black synthetic stocks, but "sporting arms" if they wear several hundred dollars worth of fine claro walnut.

Sorry, I didn't mean to slip into a rant.

Anyway, the slippery slope started with the horrible assault on the Constitution that we euphemistically call a "Civil" War. After 1865, all bets were off. Gun rights started downhill in 1934, accelerating in 1968, 1989, and 1994. We've started on a slight upward trend for gun rights since 1990 or so, so far as concealed carry goes. But until licensing or permit requirements are repealed, it's minor incrementalism.

Kevin
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Brien

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2005, 11:10:17 am »

I think you have to set up your own deal for being "more free."  I don't know your life style but one can tailor their lifestyle in NH to reduce their tax burden and increase their feeling of freedom.  It is called gentleman farming. I think Farmers and those in the agricultural "industries" receive federal tax breaks and probably qualify for local property tax breaks in several rural towns. I believe NH is "Farm friendly."

So while your wife is working the daily grind, perhaps you can do some  organic farming to contribute to your own well being and feeling of freedom.  Nothing like rising to meet the day in January and have to feed the chickens, hogs, horses, and the myriad of other animals.  Then have some breakfast and return to "muck" the stalls, and de-ice the water in the barn for drinking.

No, seriously, there are many business classified as "agricultural" and do qualify for tax breaks on both the state and federal level.  Get out of the stuffy office and live "free" by participating in agricultural activity to earn a living.  Attend some of the Agricultural shows and expositions to get a idea of what sells.  Ask the state government extension centers for recommendations.  You have to create your own freedom.  It just doesn't magically appear when you move there.
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bIlluminati

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2005, 01:07:13 am »

Caleb:

I agree 100%.

Brian - very strange rant. Almost grasped it though. Didn't spit coffee (it's 2am).

Let me see. Both my exes live in Ohio. Yes, I will be more free. Undoubtedly.

For freedom,

Thomas
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Zerstorer

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2005, 01:57:23 am »

Well, from a daily grind perspective the lack of mandatory auto insurance helps as well. The sale/title/tax/tag process was not overly burdensome either.

Here in Manchester the main problem I see are is the ever growing hoard of belligerent, openly hostile illegals shrieking spanish at each other.

The local police seem slightly thuggish (speed-traps, always on the lookout for thier daily pinch, etc) but not nearly as bad as other places Ive been.

By and large, I do feel as "free" as can be expected in what has become of America.

 
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KBCraig

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2005, 12:58:27 am »

Here in Manchester the main problem I see are is the ever growing hoard of belligerent, openly hostile illegals shrieking spanish at each other.

 :)

Having 14 years' experience in corrections, mostly dealing with immigrants, I must point out that a friendly game of dominos, ordinary workplace discussions, and even common everyday pleasantries can sound like like WWIII to the untrained ear. And I'm not just speaking of immigrants (legal or otherwise); I once responded to a "fight" that turned out to be nothing more than a couple of New Orleans Crips "just kickin' it" (their phrase for shootin' the shit, albeit loudly and unintelligibly).

I have great hopes for NH assimillating foreign cultures, so long as those cultures wish to enjoy freedom. After all, I'm from Arkansas, which is just as foreign to NH as Cuba.

Kevin
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Brien

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2005, 11:00:12 am »

Caleb:

I agree 100%.

Brian - very strange rant. Almost grasped it though. Didn't spit coffee (it's 2am).

Let me see. Both my exes live in Ohio. Yes, I will be more free. Undoubtedly.

For freedom,

Thomas

Thomas:  Well what is not to understand about farming?  The government gives many tax breaks to farmers.  Freedom and liberty is what you make for yourself under the rights and privileges in our Constitution.   Do you think someone(the freedom & liberty fairy) just comes along and hands out liberty and freedom?   Thomas Jefferson stated that freedom and liberty were "natural rights" every person is born with. Government doesn't confir or grant these rights upon people.  He stated that government should only guarantee and protect them. You may think it a "strange rant" but you haven't seen me in a real rant. :)

I understand that you were reading this at 2am so this is why I qualified my writing  to you.

Any other questions?

Brien.

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caroline

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2005, 02:16:40 pm »


By and large, I do feel as "free" as can be expected in what has become of America.

 

Do you really think that things have deteriorated to such an extent in the U.S.? I mean, what are you using to make the comparison? Or is that just something that people say to discourage complacency? Even at my relatively young age- I haven't been around long enough to compare very many past decades- I think America is in much better shape than it was...say 15-30 years ago. As a soon-to-be repatriate, it just seems to me that Americans don't know how to appreciate what they've got.
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EC

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2005, 03:13:58 pm »

Do you really think that things have deteriorated to such an extent in the U.S.? I mean, what are you using to make the comparison? Or is that just something that people say to discourage complacency? Even at my relatively young age- I haven't been around long enough to compare very many past decades- I think America is in much better shape than it was...say 15-30 years ago. As a soon-to-be repatriate, it just seems to me that Americans don't know how to appreciate what they've got.


Hi Caroline,

You have brought forth a very important point that should be noted...

 The lying, cheating and stealing by government is done cleverly and covertly and deliberately, a little bit as each generation evolves...it is what they do and do well...and we pay for all the think tanks and media and news and other methods they put to use and control continually pedaling political distortions to keep the wool over our eyes . We are bombarded with crazy happenings minute by minute the world over..."damn we got it good"...huh!  New 'subjects'(the young you and me) that are unaware and uninformed and are in the "shrugging of shoulders" stage are the prime subjects of government control. "We have it pretty good, don't we?" This view and question of many young folks is exactly what happens as each new generation comes about.
The government wants you to believe you have to be cared for...the government wants you to believe it is there to save you. It is the exact opposite of what the motivation really is.The government does not want you to know that you were born with the right to be free and 'fully' responsible for yourself.  Even if 5% or 10% of us were to 'cut loose' from the strings of government in a coordinated effort  it would put quite a deep mud hole in the road...government does everything it possibly can to keep this from happening.

I personally have never given my consent to be governed. I imagine that you may not have been told that you are basically coerced into giving your 'consent' at birth through a birth certificate and when you file for a social security number and when you get a driver's license and basically every legal form you fill out and sign re-confirms your 'unknowingly' consenting to be governed.

Here are some good links for good (real/honest) history if you have the time to read:

http://www.originalintent.org/edu/citizenship.php

http://www.originalintent.org/edu/

http://www.wealth4freedom.com/


 Government that seeks its own preservation looks upon the strength and bravery of the people as the root of its greatest danger; and desires to render them weak, base, corrupt and unfaithful to each other, that they may neither dare to attempt the breaking of the yoke laid upon them, nor trust one another in any generous design for the recovery of their liberty. -Algernon Sidney
 
http://oll.libertyfund.org/Home3/index.php
« Last Edit: July 29, 2005, 07:30:49 am by EC »
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SteveA

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2005, 04:10:51 pm »

Quote
Do you really think that things have deteriorated to such an extent in the U.S.? I mean, what are you using to make the comparison? Or is that just something that people say to discourage complacency? Even at my relatively young age- I haven't been around long enough to compare very many past decades- I think America is in much better shape than it was...say 15-30 years ago. As a soon-to-be repatriate, it just seems to me that Americans don't know how to appreciate what they've got.

I agree that many things aren't as bad as they could be and possibly part of the statement is intended to discourage apathy but why leave it at that?  Many people believe fixing recurring problems is too difficult and not worth the effect (I'd like to point out that the primary reason we haven't had a Hitler yet in the U.S. is because of the efforts of a minority of people that constantly try to reign in governmental powers and spread the word when warning signs appear) but consider what changes could be made if even for a single day, people on a large scale dug their feet in and said enough was enough.  Shoud we settle for ok/fair/better than elsewhere (I'm not so certain the U.S. is the best place to live in the world anymore ... most Americans don't even likely have much of any idea about what 80%+ of the rest of the world is really like.  Many more foreigners who come to the U.S. to study, return to their homeland compared to decades ago and we obvious are losing our sliding relative to economic and technological achievements elsewhere).  I admit life may generally be easier for some people in the U.S. but the middle/working class has suffered.

Regarding how things were 15-30 years ago, cost of living is higher, people can't afford to support large families as well as they could before, education is actually rather bad and leaves all of us at a disadvantage as it hurts the economy for everyone, no matter what your skills are (if there's no janitor due to welfare or the minimum wage for example, the would be secretary becomes a janitor instead and the engineer has to do more clerical duties and the products aren't built as efficiently with the costs to everyone increased).  My friend found a 5th grade textbook from the 50s and him and his brother were amazed at how difficult the problems were.  The Space Shuttle can't even stay aloft anymore, though it's technology that worked rather well 20 years ago and it seems rather obivous that our social skills have deteriorated as well.  As government has taken over being our caretaker, we lose sight of the true reliance on others though it's still just as real and important but the "market value" of these associations has been forcibly altered.

I agree with EC that many of these things are similar to the frog in a pot analogy, as long as the water temperature slowly increases, the root causes of these damages isn't noticed and people sit around watching American Idol with a beer.  That's fine but those of us who want a change shouldn't be bound unnecessarily to be responsible for the actions of others - but watch the squirming start as soon as anyone wants to become independent and try something different.
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JonathanLeModern

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2005, 01:01:17 am »

Caleb:

I agree 100%.

Brian - very strange rant. Almost grasped it though. Didn't spit coffee (it's 2am).

Let me see. Both my exes live in Ohio. Yes, I will be more free. Undoubtedly.

For freedom,

Thomas

Thomas:  Well what is not to understand about farming?  The government gives many tax breaks to farmers.  Freedom and liberty is what you make for yourself under the rights and privileges in our Constitution.   Do you think someone(the freedom & liberty fairy) just comes along and hands out liberty and freedom?   Thomas Jefferson stated that freedom and liberty were "natural rights" every person is born with. Government doesn't confir or grant these rights upon people.  He stated that government should only guarantee and protect them. You may think it a "strange rant" but you haven't seen me in a real rant. :)

I understand that you were reading this at 2am so this is why I qualified my writing  to you.

Any other questions?

Brien.



do you have a farm in new hampshire? can i come work on it if you do?
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Brien

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2005, 12:28:31 pm »

.

Brian - very strange rant. Almost grasped it though. Didn't spit coffee (it's 2am).

Let me see. Both my exes live in Ohio. Yes, I will be more free. Undoubtedly.

For freedom,

Thomas
Quote

Thomas:  Well what is not to understand about farming?  The government gives many tax breaks to farmers.  Freedom and liberty is what you make for yourself under the rights and privileges in our Constitution.   Do you think someone(the freedom & liberty fairy) just comes along and hands out liberty and freedom?   Thomas Jefferson stated that freedom and liberty were "natural rights" every person is born with. Government doesn't confir or grant these rights upon people.  He stated that government should only guarantee and protect them. You may think it a "strange rant" but you haven't seen me in a real rant. :)

I understand that you were reading this at 2am so this is why I qualified my writing  to you.

Any other questions?

Brien.


Quote

do you have a farm in new hampshire? can i come work on it if you do?
Quote

Thomas.  I have been on many Dairy farms in New Hampshire and Vermont.  I have worked them, albeit not full time.  Can you tell a Jersey from a Holstein from a Guernsey?  A Heifer from a Vealer?  Have you ever been in a milking parlor?

However, I  think you are missing my point.  All I was suggesting was that a family can move to NH and get involved with Agriculture.  This doesn't necessarily mean farming, per se.  It can mean raising Geraniums in greenhouses and selling them wholesale to retailers around the state.  Your land would qualify for "tax breaks" and your equipment would all be deductible on the federal and state level.  Besides the depreciation.  You land would qualify for a "farm" category and be taxed differently than if you were living on 10 acres in a house.

I have made Maple Syrup.  This is a big industry in VT and NH.  All of your land devoted to "sugaring" is taxed as "Agricultural".  All of your supplies are taxed differently than if it was just a "hobby".  Lets say you produce 400 gallons of Maple Syrup from 16,000 gallons of sap gathered from your maples in the "sugarbush" from mid March to early April.  All of your evaporators, firewood, and equipment to bring the sap to the sugarhouse for the boil would be taxed differently than if you just made 10 gallons for home consumption.

Do you understand now?

I was not saying I was a farmer.  I am saying I have worked on a few farms in Northern New England.  You no longer require 100 head of Holstein to make a living.  As a matter of fact, 100 head will barely cut it with Agri-MArk or Cabot.  And you would probably require 400 acres to make a living.  What I am saying is there are several alternatives now to what you may think as "farming."  Check with the state Agricultural Department and the extension services as well as with the US Department of Agriculture to explore what is happening on a smaller basis these days.  It is an excellent way to shelter oneself from taxable land and income.

Btw, if you want a job on a farm, I can probably refer you.  Do you have any experience?

Now, any other questions?
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lordpoee

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2005, 07:19:06 am »

Guns: Guns are a right. people only hate guns because they fear what they do not understand.

The Free State does not need Gun Haters. The MA. Invasion is going to ruin everything and tear down the foundations for freedom even before the mortor dries.

If ya don't like guns, stay out of the free-state. You are as FREE to stay in MA. as you are to leave. But the MA. folks LOVE them low taxes. GUNS are what makes it possible. You and your wife should buy a firearm and learn to use it.

My wife does not approve of hand-guns, but she respects my right to one.
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Denis Goddard

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Re: Will we really be more free immediately upon moving?
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2005, 10:21:08 pm »

If ya don't like guns, stay out of the free-state.

Truly, that comes off as rather shrill.
Reminds me of that hideous phrase "If you don't love America, get out!"

I think you intended to say, "If you want to abridge my right to carry a gun, stay out of the free-state".

There is definitely a large and vocal 2nd-amendment constituency here in NH.
Personally, that's not my hot issue -- I'm much more concerned with free trade and drug legalization -- but there's no use picking nits.
We all want More Freedom in General, yes?

Remember: For each of us, our personal hot-button issues fire us up and get us motivated. That's a Good Thing.
But be mindful of the fact that this is, ultimately, a political game. And in a Democracy such as we have (thank god)
it is of critical importance that other people like what they hear you saying.

Sucks, eh? Yep, it's the worst, except for the other options!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 10:24:12 pm by Denis Goddard »
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