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Author Topic: Let's talk about oil  (Read 6632 times)

MrVoluntarist

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2004, 06:23:12 pm »

well this environmentalist has been arguing for that type of system here for over a year at least...

http://skyowners.org/

This would potentially raise the price of their products significantly and allow a competitor to build something that doesn't pollute...

bye-bye huge profits!

I just wish you would be more honest about this goal.

You're wrong anyway: environmentalists have tried this sort of thing for 40 years: dress up envy of the rich and hatred of capitalism as an environmental issue, and throw all kinds of regulations on industry, hoping it will make them unprofitable and fold.  Fail, rinse, repeat.
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LeopardPM

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2004, 03:40:52 am »


Is the importation of oil into the US guided by Adam Smith's "invisible hand?" (in other words natural market forces) or is it the effect of geopolitical meddling? If it is not natural market forces, then this is the government messing with the economy big time.

Does anybody know anything about this?

Patrick, its actually worse than you imagine:
not only does the US Gov effect the price of oil greatly, but the US Gov is DEPENDENT on maintaining control over oil in that the value of its currency is being supported by OPEC in that OPEC currently sells oil ONLY for dollars (in effect backing our dollar with oil).  If OPEC changes this policy and starts accepting Euros (which is in OPECs best interests to do, they are taking it in the shorts right now due to the dollars increasing devaluation) then we will have MAJOR problems back here in the states.  But of course, the gov knows this and is using its military to coerce those mideast countries from changing over to Euros..

Interesting how the one Middle Eastern country that did start accepting Euros is now currently under US occpation with their leader in jail (saddam)....

.... and oil is just one side of our coin.... there are two big shoes poised to drop on us at any moment: (1) Oil backed by dollars in the Middle East, (2) china fixing their currency to the dollar.  If and when either or both of these situations change, we will be in for quite a wild ride, 1929 will be a day in the park compared to the destructive economic forces that will finally be unleashed....

michael
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Top Dollar

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2004, 12:42:54 pm »

What's good for Exxon is good for America...
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LeopardPM

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2004, 01:27:29 pm »

What's good for Exxon is good for America...

whats good for america is for the government to stop subsidizing Exxon - let them alone to sink or swim in the market of energy production....
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RhythmStar

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2004, 07:33:22 pm »

What's good for Exxon is good for America...

whats good for america is for the government to stop subsidizing Exxon - let them alone to sink or swim in the market of energy production....

YES!  

RS
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LeopardPM

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2004, 08:07:01 pm »

What's good for Exxon is good for America...

whats good for america is for the government to stop subsidizing Exxon - let them alone to sink or swim in the market of energy production....

YES!  

RS

we really are of one mind, RS - we just approach it from two different angles - but you know this already, yes?

michael
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<Patrick>

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2004, 05:13:56 am »


Is the importation of oil into the US guided by Adam Smith's "invisible hand?" (in other words natural market forces) or is it the effect of geopolitical meddling? If it is not natural market forces, then this is the government messing with the economy big time.

Does anybody know anything about this?

Patrick, its actually worse than you imagine:
not only does the US Gov effect the price of oil greatly, but the US Gov is DEPENDENT on maintaining control over oil in that the value of its currency is being supported by OPEC in that OPEC currently sells oil ONLY for dollars (in effect backing our dollar with oil).  If OPEC changes this policy and starts accepting Euros (which is in OPECs best interests to do, they are taking it in the shorts right now due to the dollars increasing devaluation) then we will have MAJOR problems back here in the states.  But of course, the gov knows this and is using its military to coerce those mideast countries from changing over to Euros..

Interesting how the one Middle Eastern country that did start accepting Euros is now currently under US occpation with their leader in jail (saddam)....

.... and oil is just one side of our coin.... there are two big shoes poised to drop on us at any moment: (1) Oil backed by dollars in the Middle East, (2) china fixing their currency to the dollar.  If and when either or both of these situations change, we will be in for quite a wild ride, 1929 will be a day in the park compared to the destructive economic forces that will finally be unleashed....

michael

What will happen to us if China fixes their money to the dollar?
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LeopardPM

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2004, 11:46:15 am »

China CURRENTLY fixes its currency to the dollar... something like 8 to $1... this is 'helping' us, but as soon as they 'unfix' then a great amount of products over here in the US will rise in price (imports from china).  This will affect the overall standard of living (derease).  With China fixing their currency to the dollar - we are not feeling the effects (so much) of the current dollar devaluation - basically: China is subsidizing our economy (to a degree).


michael
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RhythmStar

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2004, 12:09:50 pm »

China CURRENTLY fixes its currency to the dollar... something like 8 to $1... this is 'helping' us, but as soon as they 'unfix' then a great amount of products over here in the US will rise in price (imports from china).  This will affect the overall standard of living (derease).  With China fixing their currency to the dollar - we are not feeling the effects (so much) of the current dollar devaluation - basically: China is subsidizing our economy (to a degree).


michael

For the time being, it is in China's interest to ride the dollar down gradually.  However, unless the US finds other means to prop up its currency, like a stronger balance of trade, at some future point both Asia and OPEC will have to abandon the cause and allow the free market to have its way.  This will mean a more radical devaluation of the US dollar.   Ironically, this would be the best thing to happen to US manufacturing since the end of WWII.  

On the bright side, so long as our clients remain loyal, we have the opportunity to use the gentler devaluation that is occurring to bolster our manufacturing.  I'm sure the DC mandarins have this in mind.  Already, we have reversed the trend in our trade account -- a big suprise to me!  

However, the role of oil in propping up the dollar cannot be underestimated.  We do not have a true fiat currency, unless you look only at US policy... a naive thing to do with an international currency.

RS
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2004, 01:14:22 pm »

THe primary reason for the devaluation of the dollar is that a number of countries detached their currencies from the dollar, as a protest against US foreign policy, thus decreasing the demand for the dollar.

I say keep on keeping on. It is about time we stopped pandering to foreign interests at the expense of our own. If we let the dollar go down another notch or two, we will be able to live with GATT, NAFTA, and other free trade agreements while still protecting our workers and industrial infrastructure with cheap dollars making our products attractive to foreign buyers.

This will also reduce immigration, because US earnings by illegals will not be worth as much in their home countries. Good news all around, IMHO.

This is the real reason, I think, that Bush has been encouraging the drop in the dollar: trade, jobs, and immigration all work to our benefit with a lower dollar.

Lets try to make suggestions to Bush how he can piss off more countries...
« Last Edit: March 15, 2004, 01:14:31 pm by Mike Lorrey »
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LeRuineur6

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2004, 01:35:48 pm »

Oh yes, let's promote more and more destructive practices!  Let's do whatever it takes to decrease the value of our currency to as close to zero as possible!

In the meantime, Americans will not be able to afford to import anything.  Not to mention that foreign investors hate investing in countries whose currency is plunging rapidly.

But that's all a part of Bush's big plan, right?

In theory, this is good for exports and bad for imports, which is good for lowering our trade deficit.

In reality, our trade deficit has SOARED continuously regardless of the 40% plunge in the value of the US dollar in the past two years.  Even in the latest month our trade deficit hit a new record high.

Regardless of all this alleged successful government manipulation of our currency, which is only theoretically good for our country in the short term, our currency's value will eventually be determined by how competitive our economy really is.  Thus, at this rate, our currency will become worthless.

Thank Bush for me.
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Terry 1956

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2004, 11:22:25 am »

China CURRENTLY fixes its currency to the dollar... something like 8 to $1... this is 'helping' us, but as soon as they 'unfix' then a great amount of products over here in the US will rise in price (imports from china).  This will affect the overall standard of living (derease).  With China fixing their currency to the dollar - we are not feeling the effects (so much) of the current dollar devaluation - basically: China is subsidizing our economy (to a degree).


michael
                                                                           
  Even the US government says the Chinese currency is about 40% under valued.
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Terry 1956

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2004, 11:29:15 am »

THe primary reason for the devaluation of the dollar is that a number of countries detached their currencies from the dollar, as a protest against US foreign policy, thus decreasing the demand for the dollar.

I say keep on keeping on. It is about time we stopped pandering to foreign interests at the expense of our own. If we let the dollar go down another notch or two, we will be able to live with GATT, NAFTA, and other free trade agreements while still protecting our workers and industrial infrastructure with cheap dollars making our products attractive to foreign buyers.

This will also reduce immigration, because US earnings by illegals will not be worth as much in their home countries. Good news all around, IMHO.

This is the real reason, I think, that Bush has been encouraging the drop in the dollar: trade, jobs, and immigration all work to our benefit with a lower dollar.

Lets try to make suggestions to Bush how he can piss off more countries...
                                                                           
        The British magazine The Economist  recomended in one of their recent issue that other countries allow the dollar to fall as low as the market will take it. It  fiqures that is the only way to wake up the US politicans out of so much irresponsible spending and  defecit spending.
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RhythmStar

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Re:Let's talk about oil
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2004, 11:42:51 am »

And at the same time, US-produced goods would become very affordable worldwide.   We still grow a food surplus.  We still make cars, airplanes, and could ramp up others fairly fast.

The overvalued dollar hurts the US and helps foreign producers.  It also helps the multinational corporations, who employ slave labor overseas to produce products they sell in the US, garnering petro-dollars at a huge profit margin.  

Of course, OPEC quadrupled the price of oil at the same time they pegged it to the dollar.  Who did that help?  Well, anyone with money in US oil production received a windfall.

RS
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