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Author Topic: Anarchy and FSP together???  (Read 29240 times)

protovack

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Anarchy and FSP together???
« on: March 03, 2004, 05:11:16 am »

This is my first post, and i guess this is the first question that popped into my mind after reading the faq, a couple essays,  and watching the chronicles episode.  

While I'm still young (21), and still forming my own political views, I seem to feel most at home in the Anarchist camp.  Even though I have the utmost respect for all libertarians, I can't help but worry about pesky things like police, capitalism, and informal "social darwinism."

For example, I assume that FSP would want to repeal any minimum wage laws.  I would also assume that the reason for this would be that "People are intelligent enough to figure out how much employees are worth by themselves."  Well sure they are, but we aren't all libertarians.  How does the FSP address the needs of workers rights, pay, and involvement in production of goods and services?  Would libertarians be willing to confront exploitive labor practices? And if so, would it be through direct action or through standard political channels?  It seems to me that the Anarchist sentiments of labor solidarity fit right in with the Libertarian manifesto, at least in theory.

Also, as was mentioned in the essay by Micah Bales on this same subject, the environment is an issue.  I do not support libertarianism in the corporate world.  We should revert back to the type of restricitions we placed on corporations in the 1800's, like strict charter rules, mandatory earnings caps, and no "personhood" for firms.  Basically, there is no way anyone will get me to believe that companies should be treated like people under the law.

Further, I have to voice my sentiments on guns.  Of course I respect the right to own guns.  People might just think they are cool, or they might enjoy target shooting.  However, all available data currently suggests that the mere existence of guns in a community poses the risk of accidental shootings, or emotionally charged shootings.  

If the FSP and libertarianism are truly about enabling the individual to live as full a life as possible, free of restrictions....then why is it that some support the existence of the single machine which could most easily take away a life?

Even with all these somewhat philosophical objections, I still think the FSP is the greatest idea in modern activism.  All I have to do is finish my political science degree here in Portland, OR...and then I'll sign up!



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protovack

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2004, 05:34:31 am »

And one more thing.... :)

I've seen people describing the following terms in negative ways:

1) Environmentalism
2) Liberalism
3) Gun Control
4) Universal Health-Care
5) The United Nations
6) Socialism
7) ACLU
8) Democrats

What the hell is the deal with all this ugly individualism?  All of these items, save maybe "gun control," symbolize either people or ideas that at one point or another have struggled to bring rights to people.  I just don't understand. Maybe I am missing something.

Maybe I've just never been exposed to this element of society before.  But seriously, what would be the problem with a public-cooperative dedicated to bringing universal health care to the free state?

What is so wrong with democrats?  Here in Oregon our representatives, especially Earl Blumenaeur, work tirelessly to combat the dangerous Neo-conservative spending spree.  What I think some libertarians fail to understand is this:  Our capitalistic economic system is what prevents well-intentioned officials from doing their job.
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thrivetacobell

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2004, 06:27:57 am »

Welcome protovack

If you keep asking about those things such as socialism and the UN and gun control and enviromentalism, you'll see that, although they seem to be nice and good and fair in theory, in practice they are something very different. The overall consensus here, I'd venture to say, is that these things are detrimental to the individual and, insomuch, can never truly be right or good or just, according to what those words represent by definition.

I'd say you should stick around. You've learned alot in just finding your way here. You're gonna learn a lot more. But for my need to get ready for classes, it would be great fun to get into the gun thing with you... Maybe later.
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FTL_Ian

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2004, 07:36:47 am »

Quote
Our capitalistic economic system is what prevents well-intentioned officials from doing their job.

Ahh, the road to hell...  this thread will get interesting.  I'm in a rush, myself.  Proto, I hope you'll stick around, because I know someone will post a decent response.

Regards,
Ian
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2004, 09:20:06 am »


I've seen people describing the following terms in negative ways:

1) Environmentalism
2) Liberalism
3) Gun Control
4) Universal Health-Care
5) The United Nations
6) Socialism
7) ACLU
8) Democrats


I'd say people here are conditionally positive on environmentalism (favoring restrictions on pollution, but not on private property development), positive on classical liberalism but not on modern liberalism, negative on gun control (if by that is meant gov't regulation of guns), negative on universal health care (if by that is meant gov't provision of health care through taxation), somewhat negative on the United Nations (int'l cooperation is good, but this particular institution has done some harm), somewhat positive on the ACLU (they're generally good guys, with a few blind spots), and negative on both Democrats and Republicans.
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LeRuineur6

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2004, 09:36:51 am »

protovack,

I have never seen an anti-capitalist post on these forums before.  You must be the first!

Such a view is very, very unpopular around here.  We believe in personal AND economic freedom.  There can be no distinction between them.

A "corporation" is an organizational classification created by the government through which the government gives special privileges such as financial immunity to individuals who incorporate their businesses.

In reality, we're not talking about "corporations", we're talking about companies, businesses, and entrepreneurs.  In other words, we're talking about you and me.  This is why economic freedom cannot be separated from personal freedom.

People cannot be "exploited" in voluntary transactions such as voluntary employment.  If you do not like your pay, then find another job.  Involuntary exploitive labor, therefore, does not exist in this country as far as I am aware.
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Karl

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2004, 09:40:12 am »

The problems with institutions like socialism, gun control and universal healthcare is that they must be imposed by a very heavy-handed government upon people who don't want those services.  How can that be construed as anarchism?

As for capitalism, it is the economic system based on voluntary exchange; it is the only economic system that fits human nature.  Any other system requires heavy-handed government and is immoral.  To be sure, this system is very different from the "big government" capitalism we have today, in which corporations and big government collude in ways that violate individual rights.

The foundation of what most libertarians (and free staters) believe can be viewed in this excellent flash animation from ISIL:

http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf
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Karl

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2004, 09:55:07 am »

Further, I have to voice my sentiments on guns.  Of course I respect the right to own guns.  People might just think they are cool, or they might enjoy target shooting.  However, all available data currently suggests that the mere existence of guns in a community poses the risk of accidental shootings, or emotionally charged shootings.  

What data is that? The data I read suggests that the more guns there are, the less crime there is, and the less likely a government will infringe on individual rights.

The most comprehensive book on the subject is titled "More Guns, Less Crime."  You can buy it at Amazon.com.

Let's keep in mind that a gun is an inanimate object, just a tool, that can be misused and have roles in accidents, just as many things can.  Not unlike automobiles, which are far more deadly, and far more prone to accident, yet hardly anyone is calling for the banning of automobiles.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 10:01:36 am by Karl Beisel »
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atr

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2004, 10:02:02 am »

Further, I have to voice my sentiments on guns.  Of course I respect the right to own guns.  People might just think they are cool, or they might enjoy target shooting.  However, all available data currently suggests that the mere existence of guns in a community poses the risk of accidental shootings, or emotionally charged shootings.  

What data is that?  This is terribly misinformed view.  The data I read suggests that the more guns there are, the less crime there is, and the less likely a government will infringe on individual rights.

The most comprehensive book on the subject is titled "More Guns, Less Crime."  You can buy it at Amazon.com.

In fairness, the book you've linked includes some dubious data. However, the important point to make is that whether guns correlate with crime is generally irrelevant. Cars are responsible for vastly more crime and deaths than guns. Liberty is an end in itself, more important than statistical analyses.
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Karl

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2004, 10:05:06 am »

In fairness, the book you've linked includes some dubious data. However, the important point to make is that whether guns correlate with crime is generally irrelevant. Cars are responsible for vastly more crime and deaths than guns. Liberty is an end in itself, more important than statistical analyses.

You beat me to it... I had just modified my post to include the automobile analogy.  You're right.  Liberty is reason alone to oppose government gun control.
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BillG

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2004, 12:16:14 pm »

protovack,

I have never seen an anti-capitalist post on these forums before.  You must be the first!

Such a view is very, very unpopular around here.  We believe in personal AND economic freedom.  There can be no distinction between them.

A "corporation" is an organizational classification created by the government through which the government gives special privileges such as financial immunity to individuals who incorporate their businesses.

In reality, we're not talking about "corporations", we're talking about companies, businesses, and entrepreneurs.  In other words, we're talking about you and me.  This is why economic freedom cannot be separated from personal freedom.

People cannot be "exploited" in voluntary transactions such as voluntary employment.  If you do not like your pay, then find another job.  Involuntary exploitive labor, therefore, does not exist in this country as far as I am aware.

Unfortunately it is a little more complicated than that, there are a group of left libertarians who call themselves Agorists (practicing "counter-economics") who are critical of capitalists (vs entreprenuers/innovators w/o state sanctioned priviledge) calling for a "pure" freemarket anarchism and draw this distinction:

excerpt:

Q: What are the main differences between left-libertarianism/agorism and anarcho-capitalism?

SEK3 - There are several ways of looking at this, from a theoretical view, from a strategic view, with left jargon, with right terminology, etc., but it's a fair question.

In theory, those calling themselves anarcho-capitalists (I believe Jarrett Wollstein, in his defection from Objectivism, coined the term back in early 1968) do not differ drastically from agorists; both claim to want anarchy (statelessness, and we pretty much agree on the definition of the State as a monopoly of legitimized coercion, borrowed from Rand and reinforced by Rothbard).  But the moment we apply the ideology to the real world (as the Marxoids say, "Actually Existing Capitalism") we diverge on several points immediately.

First and foremost, agorists stress the Entrepreneur, see non-statist Capitalists (in the sense of holders of capital, not necessary ideologically aware) as relatively neutral drone-like non-innovators, and pro-statist Capitalists as the main Evil in the political realm. Hence our favorable outlook toward "conspiracy theory" fans, even when we think they're misled or confused.  As for the Workers and Peasants, we find them an embarrassing relic from a previous Age at best and look forward to the day that they will die out from lack of market demand (hence my phrase, deliberately tweaking the Marxoids, "liquidation of the Proletariat").  One can sum that up in the vulgar phrase, "If the State had been abolished a century ago, we'd all have robots and summer homes in the Asteroid belt."

The "Anarcho-capitalists" tend to conflate the Innovator (Entrepreneur) and Capitalist, much as the Marxoids and cruder collectivists do.  (It's interesting that the gradual victory of Austrian Economics, particularly in Europe, has led to some New Leftists at least to take our claim seriously that the Capitalist and Entrepreneur are very different classes requiring different analyses, and attempt to grapple with the problem [from their point of view] that creates for them.)

Agorists are strict Rothbardians, and, I would argue in this case, even more Rothbardian than Rothbard, who still had some of the older confusion in his thinking.  But he was Misesian, and Mises made the original distinction between Innovators/Arbitrageurs and Capital-holders (i.e., mortgage-holders, coupon-clippers, financiers, worthless heirs, landlords, etc.).  With the Market largely moving to the 'net, it is becoming ever-more pure entrepreneurial, leaving the brick 'n' mortar "capitalist" behind.

But it is dealing with current politics and current defence where Agorists most strongly differ from "anarcho-capitalists." A-caps generally (and they have lots of individual variation) believe in involvement with existing political parties (libertarian, Republican, even Democrat and Socialist, such as the Canadian NDP), and, in the extreme case, even support the Pentagon and U.S.  Defense complex to fight communism (I wonder what their excuse is now?) until we somehow get to abolishing the State.  Agorists, as you have undoubtedly picked up, are revolutionary; we don't see the market triumphing without the collapse of the State and its ruling caste, and, as I point out in New Libertarian Manifesto, historically, they just don't go without unleashing senseless violence on the usually peaceful revolutionaries who then defend themselves.

---------------------------------------------

I have posted on this in the commons and have a link there to the full interview for those interested:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=46;action=display;threadid=5771

To read the Left Libertarian Manifesto from the Agorists (author died last week):
http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/nlm/nlm.html
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 12:22:14 pm by BillG (not Gates) »
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freedomroad

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2004, 12:42:14 pm »

About Anarchy (I'm listening to NOFX right now).  We have some anarchist in the FSP, but not many.  Check out http://www.strike-the-root.com for so cool news.

Quote
Maybe I've just never been exposed to this element of society before.


That's what it seems like to me :)

Talking about the Min. Wage, that doesn't come into play in NH for the average adult.  It is not even as issue because people don't make it.

Quote
But seriously, what would be the problem with a public-cooperative dedicated to bringing universal health care to the free state?

Dude, almost everyone in NH has health care.  They get it by working for a company or by working for the government or by being disabled or elderly.  

To answer your question, why do we not want to close down all of the companies in NH that deal with health care (increase taxes by 35%)  and then give everyone lower quality government health care?  Because the productive people would leave NH and the FSP and go to lower taxed states where the government did not steal all of their income (just to give it to those that did not earn it) and give them low quality health care that might kill them.  Cuba has universal health care.  Canada has universal health care, and many people from Canada come to America for health care because of this very reason.

Also, you might want to check the U.S. Constitution or the NH Constitution.  Neither one of them say government can do universal health care, and it is a bad idea to change such important documents in the name of limiting freedom.  Look at Cali, for example.  About 1/2 of the companies plan to expand outside of the state (instead of inside) because the government is out of controll.

Quote
What is so wrong with democrats?

Nothing.  We have Democrats in the FSP and would welcome more as long as they are follow the FSP statement of intent.
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Karl

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2004, 12:43:59 pm »

Leave it to BillG to dredge up some choice indecipherable rubbish.
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BillG

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2004, 01:18:41 pm »

Leave it to BillG to dredge up some choice indecipherable rubbish.

ad hom·i·nem    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (hm-nm, -nm)
adj.
Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.

tsk tsk Karl!
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Karl

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2004, 01:27:24 pm »

Leave it to BillG to dredge up some choice indecipherable rubbish.

ad hom·i·nem    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (hm-nm, -nm)
adj.
Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.

tsk tsk Karl!

I won't explain in every detail how obscure and dense the "manifesto" you cited is.  It is self evident to all who read it.

That you are a frequent purveyor of such garbage is standalone fact; anything you post is suspect by reputation alone.

BTW, I wasn't questioning your motive.  I was questioning your competence.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 01:29:42 pm by Karl Beisel »
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