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Author Topic: Anarchy and FSP together???  (Read 30472 times)

ebola

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #90 on: March 12, 2004, 03:26:33 pm »

>>Ebola (ebola?? ),>>

Worry not about it.  I just get tired of capitalization occasionally.

 >>I'm as big a renewable energy and self-reliance geek as you're likely to find in the fsp, and even I will openly acknowledge that we are far from running out of oil.>>

We may be working under different conceptions of soon.  I was thinking within 100 years.  And there is the question of whether we want the supply to stretch for longer than that.

>>Austrian economic prescriptions>>

What are these??  I'm interested...not that I'm a Keynesian. :)

>>The maximum freedom attainable is not on a corner of my chart. (Not all areas are attainable.) Since we have differing abilities and ambitions, complete economic equality is not compatible with freedom. Then again, extreme inequality is also incompatible with freedom, since more government is needed to guard the concentrations of wealth. See http://www.holisticpolitics.org/WhatIsFreedom.>>

I'll check it out although I doubt I'll change my mind.
Most of the examples you give assume the continued existence of capitalism while focusing on commodity trade, ignoring the realities of production.
...
  There is also the question of what we mean by equality and what we mean by freedom for that matter.  Are we talking about equality of ends, equality of means, or equality under the law?

>>Even when we do finally run out of oil -- in fact, hopefully long before that -- we will be able to drive around on vegetable fuels.  Check out this link
http://www.hempcar.org/biofacts.shtml>>

This is promising, although I am skeptical as to whether will have enough crops of wheat, corn, hemp, etc. to fuel personal cars for everyone.  Public transit may become a necessity.

ebola

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ebola

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #91 on: March 12, 2004, 03:43:43 pm »

>>alanrweiss
>>

I disagree with the majority of your assertions about economics although I have already addressed most of them in this thread.

ebola
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #92 on: March 12, 2004, 04:41:25 pm »

Quote
without any standards of reference, your chart there is absolutely useless. It is also quite wrong. The maximum freedom occurs at a corner, not the middle of a side, since the chart measures 100% economic by 100% social liberty.
The standard of reference is the status quo, which is at the center of the chart.

It is not "wrong"; it is different from the Nolan Chart. I could argue that the Nolan Chart is "wrong" since it places fascists and communists at the same location, despite the fact that they hate each other.

Look at the axis labels: freedom, as in limited government, is one axis. The other is economic equality.

This is the key problem. There is no such THING as economic 'equality', for the very simple reason that every individual values things different from every other individual. The only thing you can have is economic liberty or economic slavery, i.e. how much control YOU have, as an individual, over your personal economic expression and development.

Quote

The feudal system had less economicfreedom than modern Euro-socialism, yet was far less egalitarian than U.S. capitalism. It is not just the amount of government, but what the government does with its power.

Quote:
Leftism is defined as less than 50% economic liberty, over 50% social liberty

This is a definition used by many libertarians. It is not a universal definition. Listen to the Left. Actually listen. Their values are more about equality than about seeing how big they can make government. They see big government as a tool to get there. They are open to other tools.

I have had more pleasant discussions than this one with socialists. With them I can attack Keynes and point out that Austrian economic prescriptions are more egalitarian than Keynesian economics. The response is good.

Looking at reality from a different perspective can be difficult at times. Reflexes have to be controlled in order to allow reason to work.

Reason only works so long as you haven't had your mind so open that your brain falls out. Socialists ideals of equality are impossible to achieve for the simple reason that humans are not clones, are not robots. We each value things differently, and because of this, equality can never be attained.

Because of this, socialism is an irrational and unrealizable value system.
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #93 on: March 12, 2004, 05:07:22 pm »

>>Even when we do finally run out of oil -- in fact, hopefully long before that -- we will be able to drive around on vegetable fuels.  Check out this link
http://www.hempcar.org/biofacts.shtml>>

This is promising, although I am skeptical as to whether will have enough crops of wheat, corn, hemp, etc. to fuel personal cars for everyone.  Public transit may become a necessity.

ebola

Yah, but see that's exactly why it's so beautiful!  Agriculture in this country has been limping along on government subsidies for years; biodiesel from fuel crops such as hemp and canola could make agriculture pay for itself again!  It would also go a long ways toward erasing America's trade deficit, it would increase our national security by eliminating our dependency on a foreign essential resource, and the best part is we could almost totally decentralize the petroleum economy!  Whereas fossil fuels are only found in certain places -- unfortunately underneath dickhead governments like Saudi Arabia, Russia and Iraq -- hemp can be grown virtually anywhere!  In fact, you could even produce your own fuel!  Biodiesel can even be made -- in fact often is made -- from waste vegetable oil from fast food joints!  It's one of the few things in life that really has almost no downside!
I don't know what the numbers indicate potential for production vs. consumption, but I think we could still drive personal vehicles.

Okay, I apologize for diverting the thread again; sometimes I just get rollin'!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2004, 05:09:06 pm by penguinsscareme »
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SteveA

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #94 on: March 12, 2004, 05:35:49 pm »

Quote
The feudal system had less economicfreedom than modern Euro-socialism, yet was far less egalitarian than U.S. capitalism. It is not just the amount of government, but what the government does with its power.

The trick is never putting all your eggs in one basket.  As long as people have the ability to stop supporting something they view as harmful to themselves I believe we avoid the problem of too much power, in too few hands.

Assuming government can control wealth in a fair manner is the weakness of the left.  Placing control of the economy in the hands of people who are allowed to legitimately use force is not good.

Assuming government can enforce morality is the weakness of the right.  Placing control of our thoughts and actions in the hands of people allowed to legitimately use force is not good either.

I don't think there are many "positive tradeoffs" that can be made at the expense of our liberty.  Given a Constitutional government, there's still a good chance many states might have laws similar to the federal ones now but allowing the states greater freedom in determining these is a benefit in itself and only better than without it.

Quote
I could argue that the Nolan Chart is "wrong" since it places fascists and communists at the same location, despite the fact that they hate each other.

Maybe authoritarians tend to hate each other? ;D

The Nolan Chart shows 2 dimensions - economic and social freedoms.  There are obviously many dimensions to political views but from the 2 in the Nolan chart, they appear very similar.  It's at least better than the single left-right dimension, which only allows economic repression OR social repression or some varied ratio of the two.  I can imagine the day when the option of left or right is removed. :P
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Harmonious Avenger

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #95 on: March 12, 2004, 06:16:30 pm »


>>Austrian economic prescriptions>>

What are these??  I'm interested...not that I'm a Keynesian. :)


This is promising, although I am skeptical as to whether will have enough crops of wheat, corn, hemp, etc. to fuel personal cars for everyone.  Public transit may become a necessity.

Keynesian economics worries about the "Paradox of Thrift," that more savings can accumulate than can be invested or spent. Thus, Keynesians try to discourage savings and believe in federal budget deficits. The Austrian school is pro-savings.

Adam Smith pointed out centuries ago that as savings accumulate, the rate of interest and therefore the rate of profits go down. This results in wealth going to the working class. See http://www.holisticpolitics.org/BalanceOfWealth.

Social Security (discourages savings), deficit spending (eats savings) and the SEC (cripples the capital markets), result in continued high profits, which results in continued high demand for programs to level out the national income. This results in bigger and bigger government.

With true equality of opportunity (which would result in more equality of final result than we have now), there would be more stakeholders in the capitalist system.

And yes, I am presuming capitalism. Capitalism is inherent in freedom. If you outlaw trade, you outlaw a big chunk of human activity. Having to get permission from the community in order to deploy resources is not being particularly free. I placed the Bushmen on the chart at the ideal point for such communitarian anarchism.

The problem we have now is too many wage slaves and not enough capitalists.

---
As for automobiles, they will continue to be with us. There is a lot of oil in the ground still, and more coal, oil shale and tar sands. Biomass is also an option. My recollection is that current fossil carbon use is about 5% of what nature generates annually (source: Energy Information Administration).

BTW, in Asheville we had a Libertarian candidate for city council integrate a veggie powered car into his campaign http://www.goreeforasheville.com Goree is currently designing the next generation of waste vegetable oil car conversion kits.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2004, 06:23:41 pm by Harmonious Avenger »
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Morpheus

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #96 on: March 12, 2004, 07:20:46 pm »

Quote
Worry not about it.  I just get tired of capitalization occasionally.

A mark of intellectual laziness, to be sure. But as this is coming from a Socialist I cannot say that I am surprised.

By the way.. you didn't answer Top Dollar's assertion. We would be amused to see your response.
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Morpheus

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #97 on: March 12, 2004, 07:22:21 pm »

By the way, Bill.. thanks for the link. I needed a good laugh.
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #98 on: March 12, 2004, 07:24:50 pm »

I get it now, Morpheus.  You're just a meanie.
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Morpheus

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #99 on: March 12, 2004, 07:30:31 pm »

At least I'm honest.
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #100 on: March 12, 2004, 07:32:18 pm »

So am I, but I'm not a meanie.
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Harmonious Avenger

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2004, 07:57:10 pm »

By the way, Bill.. thanks for the link. I needed a good laugh.
Um, I am not Bill. I did get on this forum because of Bill, because his links it generated activity on my web site. I had hoped to clarify any questions people might have.

Um, Morpheus, I hope you don't use the same manners in person when you go to NH. Part of the art of politics is the art of being polite to those you think are horrible people. This is not an easy skill, but it does get easier with age -- if you work at it.

There was a time when I made a hobby of making liberals explode. 'Twas fun, but not very productive for liberty. Nowadays, I have recognized liberal values, adopted their terminology, and am now making progress teaching them sound economics. I am applying capitalism to political philosophy: sell egalitarians and nature lovers what they want and I get freedom in return. Capitalism: truly the unknown ideal.

The fact that some of you think that I am a socialist is testament to the success of my approach. I make Ronald Reagan look like a socialist. Twenty some years ago I was an anarcho-capitalist in the Rothbard mold. Have mellowed out a wee bit, but less than some might imagine.

For the EEs in the audience, think impedance matching.
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Morpheus

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2004, 08:18:06 pm »

I did not read your posts as closely as I should have. I was referring to BillG's earlier post of your website to this thread.

I was not calling you a Socialist; I called *ebola* a Socialist, which he is.

As for your website? Not my thing- but if you're a true Libertarian Capitalist who is trying to manipulate our Ideological enemies to our advantage, then I wish you luck. I just don't resonate with your expressed values, most notably your Altruism. I am an Egoist, you see.
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Morpheus

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2004, 08:19:22 pm »

You are a Libertarian, aren't you? And if so, of what disposition are you truly? Minarchic? Ultra-Minimalistic? What?
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #104 on: March 12, 2004, 09:23:16 pm »

We have to ask, though, why do the workers lack these skills?

Two words.

Public Education.
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