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Author Topic: Anarchy and FSP together???  (Read 28689 times)

Tracy Saboe

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2004, 09:36:38 pm »

Quote from: ebola link=board=12;threadid=5939;start=75#msg88822
What I meant here is that we are on the cusp of running out of oil, so it may soon be unfeasible for everyone to drive everywhere.

Quote

Actually we have a good 100 years of oil left at our present rate of consumption. And more is being discovered all the time.

By the time we run out of oil, it will have become more economical to use solar, and wind power.  Solar and Wind at current projections, are both going to be cheaper then fossil fuels with-in the next 10 years.  Some would say sooner then that because of recent developoments in nano-tech.

There will be no catastrophy.

Tracy
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FTL_Ian

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2004, 09:39:30 pm »

Quote
Public Education.

This would be more accurately described as:

"Government-Run Public Education"

I suggest you use that when talking education.  The term "government" helps it have a more negative connotation, and assigns blame.

After all, once the government is out of it, we'll still have education for the public, just run by private organizations.

Regards,
Ian
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Harmonious Avenger

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2004, 10:11:35 pm »

As for your website? Not my thing- but if you're a true Libertarian Capitalist who is trying to manipulate our Ideological enemies to our advantage, then I wish you luck. I just don't resonate with your expressed values, most notably your Altruism. I am an Egoist, you see.
"Manipulating our ideological enemies" is overly harsh language, though the impression is likely my fault.  Freedom from government is a value. But so is cleaning up the environment, helping the poor, etc. Those who are more concerned with the non-freedom values still have some appreciation for freedom, but on the margin consider more of the other values more important that more freedom.

An analogy: the marginal cost of diamonds is far more than the marginal cost of water, simply because we have lots of water. Water is more valueable than diamond, but the value of an additional gram of water is less than the value of an additional gram of diamond.

Continuing the analogy, if I were to mass-produce gem-quality synthetic diamonds, then people would pay less for diamonds.

I am in the business of cheaply "producing" a clean environment, wealth for the poor, etc. I am "selling" these in return for more freedom. And I tell those on the Left that is what I am doing. There is no "subtle manipulation" going on.

----
As for Egoism, I did once dabble in Ayn Rand's philosophy myself, but found it wanting. It is incorrect at about step 3 of John Galt's derivation. (It is not the nature of animals to survive; all animals die. It is the nature of species to survive.)

More importantly, I have taken Public Choice economics into account. Self-interest leads to big government. It takes heroes to keep a free society free. Our Founding Fathers understood this; their writings are full of altruistic rhetoric. They made Liberty "cool."

I realize I am getting a bit off topic, so if you want to take the egoism discussion further, we should probably take it offline or to another thread. Or see the "Greed vs. Freedom" chapter on my web site, or see my earlier essay "The Virtue of Benevolence" at http://www.quiz2d.com/essays
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ebola

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #108 on: March 13, 2004, 03:42:31 pm »

>>A mark of intellectual laziness, to be sure. But as this is coming from a Socialist I cannot say that I am surprised.

By the way.. you didn't answer Top Dollar's assertion. We would be amused to see your response. >>

Heh...maybe my posts will seem more coherent or less "intellectually lazy" if you read the sentences instead of examining the individual letters.  Then we could, you know, engage the ideas rather than grammatical conventions :)

>>[people shouldn't have children they cant support]>>

I would tend to agree although the solution would not be an authoritarian crackdown a la China.  I'd say what is needed is intensive family-planning education and widely distributed birth control.  Also, in the third world where population growth is truly a problem, we must remove the economic incentives for large families.  Namely, the situation must be such that children are no longer necessary as wage-earners for the family.  As for various religious doctrines' advocacy of intensive child-bearing, I don't really have a tidy solution there. :)

ebola
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thrivetacobell

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #109 on: March 13, 2004, 04:16:41 pm »

Hey ebola...

So you tend to agree that folks shouldn't have children they cannot afford. You don't think we should have a forced one-child policy like China. The family-planning education- such would be available, of course, for anybody willing to pay for it. And birth control is readily available in any pharmacy.

The incentive for people to not breed like welfare moms in the eighties could be partially enforced by government not doing anything. Stop offering tax breaks or any priveleges to anyone choosing to have kids. Stop forcing people to subsidize public schools. Make people responsible for their choices, and their
mistakes.

And why oh why do you worry about third world countries? The best thing we could do for them is mind our own business.
For once.
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #110 on: March 13, 2004, 05:06:27 pm »

And why oh why do you worry about third world countries? The best thing we could do for them is mind our own business.
For once.

Definitely.  Two words for ya -- Monroe Freakin' Doctrine.
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ebola

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #111 on: March 14, 2004, 05:09:31 pm »

>>Actually we have a good 100 years of oil left at our present rate of consumption. And more is being discovered all the time.>>

There isn't anything that indicates that consumption is remaining constant.  Also, we are all but finished spreading across the earth.  Slowly, new discoveries will dwindle.  I hope, though, that you are right in your optimism.

>>Solar and Wind at current projections, are both going to be cheaper then fossil fuels with-in the next 10 years.  Some would say sooner then that because of recent developoments in nano-tech.
>>

I would like to see the data behind these assertions.  If this projection proves true, it will make me a lot more optimistic. :)

>>After all, once the government is out of it, we'll still have education for the public, just run by private organizations.>>

Or, under anarcho-communism, we could have autonomous collectives of educators from which to choose.  That, or education could be more decentralized, experts in various fields taking on various teaching duties.

Re: population problems
>>And birth control is readily available in any pharmacy.
>>

Once again, this is not true about the third world where it is most needed.

>>The incentive for people to not breed like welfare moms in the eighties could be partially enforced by government not doing anything. Stop offering tax breaks or any priveleges to anyone choosing to have kids. Stop forcing people to subsidize public schools. Make people responsible for their choices, and their
mistakes.
>>

Although it is true that some individuals do abuse the child-based incentives of the welfare system, the notion of the "welfare queen" is largely a myth constructed by proponents of welfare reform.

>>And why oh why do you worry about third world countries? The best thing we could do for them is mind our own business.>>

Why worry about the third-world?  Why should I worry about people in the US?  I mean, Mexico is a shorter drive from my apartment than New Hampshire. :)  I concern myself with people in general rather than people of any particular nationally.  This is really necessary because of the interdependence inherent in the world-capitalist system.
 
You are right that we should mind our own business.  First-world multinationals should get the hell out of the third-world, and indigenous peoples should reclaim the areas' wealth and the fruits of their labor for themselves.

ebola



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thrivetacobell

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #112 on: March 14, 2004, 05:48:10 pm »

<<Why worry about the third-world?  Why should I worry about people in the US?  I mean, Mexico is a shorter drive from my apartment than New Hampshire.   I concern myself with people in general rather than people of any particular nationally.>>

So frustrating! Why should you worry about people in the US or Mexico or the world?

I'll leave it to someone else why you should worry about the people in your own country, and look forward to a response to that myself.

How about concerning yourself with yourself? Could you suppose that, were you to look after yourself and let others take responsibility for themselves, that the world might just be a better place?

(Yeah, that sounds like crunchy hippie shit but you said nationally instead of nationality and I'm not gonna pick on you for that... we're all human!)
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ebola

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #113 on: March 15, 2004, 01:36:39 am »

>>I'll leave it to someone else why you should worry about the people in your own country, and look forward to a response to that myself.>>

I'll be entertained and surprised if this is taken on by an anarcho-capitalist.

>> Could you suppose that, were you to look after yourself and let others take responsibility for themselves, that the world might just be a better place?
>>

At the same time, we should be free to cooperate with whomever we choose if we deem cooperative strategies more effective.  Such is the thrust of anarchism.  And well, I cannot turn my back on my own empathy.

>>Yeah, that sounds like crunchy hippie shit but you said nationally instead of nationality and I'm not gonna pick on you for that... we're all human!>>

I'm all into cruchy hippie shit.
and thanks for not focusing on my malfunctioning brain-based spell-checker.  Idea-based conversations are ultimately more fulfilling.

ebola
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