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[BillG]

what are all the possibilities?

1. God
2. our nature
3. amongst men

What do you mean by "amongst men?"

socially constructed - we decide among ourselves what is a right...

further clarification on "our nature"...a biological basis expressed thru our human nature.

I would have to reject socially constructed "rights" as subjective and arbitrary.

I would have to reject religious/authoritarian views of rights as also arbitrary.

That leaves only rights rooted in human nature...

WHich happens to also be the Deist view of rights, even though we hold that the reason humans are made that way is the Creator's intention that we discover and adhere to those principles out of Reason, not Religion.

RS

So we have a common foundation in Reason and human nature. Why don't we start there?

I am in although I tend to fall in the socially constructed reality view of the world as you may already know...but for purposes of this discussion RS's Deist view works for me too.

I was raised Catholic...so I have been in all of these camps thru my life experience!

[<Patrick>]

what are all the possibilities?

1. God
2. our nature
3. amongst men

What do you mean by "amongst men?"

socially constructed - we decide among ourselves what is a right...

further clarification on "our nature"...a biological basis expressed thru our human nature.

I would have to reject socially constructed "rights" as subjective and arbitrary.

I would have to reject religious/authoritarian views of rights as also arbitrary.

That leaves only rights rooted in human nature...

WHich happens to also be the Deist view of rights, even though we hold that the reason humans are made that way is the Creator's intention that we discover and adhere to those principles out of Reason, not Religion.

RS

So we have a common foundation in Reason and human nature. Why don't we start there?

I am in although I tend to fall in the socially constructed reality view of the world as you may already know...but for purposes of this discussion RS's Deist view works for me too.

I was raised Catholic...so I have been in all of these camps thru my life experience!

"socially constructed reality view of the world?"

OMFG Bill...

[<Patrick>]

At least now you claim to have evidence. That's a start.
 

:-) I thought that's what I was saying all along. I'm not the best writer. Maybe I wasn't very clear.

Tracy

Let's drop the existence of God issue. You still have not convinced me and I still have not convinced you...

Let's go on to the next step. Can we all agree that our rights derive from our natures--what we are as human beings--regardless of how we got here?

[BillG]

At least now you claim to have evidence. That's a start.
 

:-) I thought that's what I was saying all along. I'm not the best writer. Maybe I wasn't very clear.

Tracy

Let's drop the existence of God issue. You still have not convinced me and I still have not convinced you...

Let's go on to the next step. Can we all agree that our rights derive from our natures--what we are as human beings--regardless of how we got here?

thank god!

let's get on with it...

what have we agreed to so far?

[thewaka]

All the posts on the existence of God have been moved into their own thread in the Religion & Liberty forum. The thread is locked and all posters are warned not to begin this type of discussion again. The posts violate the Religion & Liberty forum guidelines, which do apply to the entire board.

Diana

[demarkus]

Let's drop the existence of God issue. You still have not convinced me and I still have not convinced you...

Let's go on to the next step. Can we all agree that our rights derive from our natures--what we are as human beings--regardless of how we got here?

I have rights because I say I have them, and you respect them because it will make me angry if you don't.

[BillG]

There is a God - thank you moderator!

[<Patrick>]

All the posts on the existence of God have been moved into their own thread in the Religion & Liberty forum. The thread is locked and all posters are warned not to begin this type of discussion again. The posts violate the Religion & Liberty forum guidelines, which do apply to the entire board.

Diana

Well I'll be goddamned...

[demarkus]

Let's drop the existence of God issue. You still have not convinced me and I still have not convinced you...

Did you really expect to convince him?

[Tracy Saboe]

He's the one that asked for some "mystical imput"

I don't see what the big deal is. We were having a civil conversation.  I didn't mean to break the rules though.

Again I must apologize. But I thought that because it wasn't in the religious forum (Because I DO know the rules of the religious forum) it would probably be OK.

We even agreed with each other at the end, that rights come from the nature of man regardless of where that nature comes from. I didn't realize we were being contensious. Sorry.

Tracy

[LeopardPM]

Let's go on to the next step. Can we all agree that our rights derive from our natures--what we are as human beings--regardless of how we got here?

'derive from our natures'? I do not understand.  I agree in so much that it is 'our nature' to communicate and create social codes for interaction that we all deem beneficial to us.  I do not agree that 'rights' themselves is something that a human being has ascribed to them:  the lone islander has no 'rights' and has all 'rights' at once, rights only apply within a social context.

michael

Tracy: do not assume that I am disallowing the existance of a creator here, my belief actually is that the creator endowed us with 'being human' which includes the ability to create rights for ourselves.

[BillG]

Michael-

are you saying we don't have a universal right to:

a. life
b. the use of our faculties bracketed by the rights of others
c. self-ownership

and if these are not universal right do we have any at all?

[Tracy Saboe]

Tracy: do not assume that I am disallowing the existance of a creator here, my belief actually is that the creator endowed us with 'being human' which includes the ability to create rights for ourselves.

No that's fine. That's how my Christian Objectivist friend sythesizes the two views. They're perfectly compatible.

Tracy

[LeopardPM]

Michael-

are you saying we don't have a universal right to:

a. life
b. the use of our faculties bracketed by the rights of others
c. self-ownership

and if these are not universal right do we have any at all?

I am saying that ANY and ALL rights (life, self-ownership, et al) are societal contracts which we form.  Our birth, by itself, does not endow any rights - it is only the joint agreement with others that we obtain 'rights'.  Like I said, the lone islander has no 'rights' and has all 'rights' at the same time.

If you and I were on an island - and we agreed that it is mutually beneficial for us to not murder each other, then we have just given ourselves the 'right to life'.  If you do not agree, then I have no 'right' and neither do you.

So, yes, we do have rights, those rights we all agree upon.

michael

[BillG]

So, yes, we do have rights, those rights we all agree upon

does that mean our rights are socially constructed?

in other words, if we are the only two on an island and we agree that murder is ok there is no universal right against it?