Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Rights  (Read 17958 times)

BillG

  • Guest
Re:Rights
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2004, 04:06:55 pm »

what are all the possibilities?

1. God
2. our nature
3. amongst men

What do you mean by "amongst men?"


socially constructed - we decide among ourselves what is a right...

further clarification on "our nature"...a biological basis expressed thru our human nature.

I would have to reject socially constructed "rights" as subjective and arbitrary.

I would have to reject religious/authoritarian views of rights as also arbitrary.

That leaves only rights rooted in human nature...

WHich happens to also be the Deist view of rights, even though we hold that the reason humans are made that way is the Creator's intention that we discover and adhere to those principles out of Reason, not Religion.

RS


So we have a common foundation in Reason and human nature. Why don't we start there?

I am in although I tend to fall in the socially constructed reality view of the world as you may already know...but for purposes of this discussion RS's Deist view works for me too.

I was raised Catholic...so I have been in all of these camps thru my life experience!
Logged

<Patrick>

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 911
  • Radical Capitalist
    • Ayn Rand Institute
Re:Rights
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2004, 10:45:31 pm »

what are all the possibilities?

1. God
2. our nature
3. amongst men

What do you mean by "amongst men?"


socially constructed - we decide among ourselves what is a right...

further clarification on "our nature"...a biological basis expressed thru our human nature.

I would have to reject socially constructed "rights" as subjective and arbitrary.

I would have to reject religious/authoritarian views of rights as also arbitrary.

That leaves only rights rooted in human nature...

WHich happens to also be the Deist view of rights, even though we hold that the reason humans are made that way is the Creator's intention that we discover and adhere to those principles out of Reason, not Religion.

RS


So we have a common foundation in Reason and human nature. Why don't we start there?

I am in although I tend to fall in the socially constructed reality view of the world as you may already know...but for purposes of this discussion RS's Deist view works for me too.

I was raised Catholic...so I have been in all of these camps thru my life experience!

"socially constructed reality view of the world?"

OMFG Bill...
Logged
"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

<Patrick>

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 911
  • Radical Capitalist
    • Ayn Rand Institute
Re:Rights
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2004, 02:09:56 am »

Quote
At least now you claim to have evidence. That's a start.
 :)

:-) I thought that's what I was saying all along. I'm not the best writer. Maybe I wasn't very clear.

Tracy

Let's drop the existence of God issue. You still have not convinced me and I still have not convinced you...

Let's go on to the next step. Can we all agree that our rights derive from our natures--what we are as human beings--regardless of how we got here?
Logged
"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

BillG

  • Guest
Re:Rights
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2004, 08:24:59 am »

Quote
At least now you claim to have evidence. That's a start.
 :)

:-) I thought that's what I was saying all along. I'm not the best writer. Maybe I wasn't very clear.

Tracy

Let's drop the existence of God issue. You still have not convinced me and I still have not convinced you...

Let's go on to the next step. Can we all agree that our rights derive from our natures--what we are as human beings--regardless of how we got here?


thank god!

let's get on with it...

what have we agreed to so far?

Logged

thewaka

  • FSP Member
  • FSP Participant
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 263
Re:Rights
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2004, 01:08:36 pm »

All the posts on the existence of God have been moved into their own thread in the Religion & Liberty forum. The thread is locked and all posters are warned not to begin this type of discussion again. The posts violate the Religion & Liberty forum guidelines, which do apply to the entire board.

Diana
Logged

demarkus

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 243
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Rights
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2004, 01:39:18 pm »

Let's drop the existence of God issue. You still have not convinced me and I still have not convinced you...
8)

Let's go on to the next step. Can we all agree that our rights derive from our natures--what we are as human beings--regardless of how we got here?


I have rights because I say I have them, and you respect them because it will make me angry if you don't.
Logged
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
- Voltaire

BillG

  • Guest
Re:Rights
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2004, 01:39:47 pm »

There is a God - thank you moderator!
Logged

<Patrick>

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 911
  • Radical Capitalist
    • Ayn Rand Institute
Re:Rights
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2004, 04:39:23 pm »

All the posts on the existence of God have been moved into their own thread in the Religion & Liberty forum. The thread is locked and all posters are warned not to begin this type of discussion again. The posts violate the Religion & Liberty forum guidelines, which do apply to the entire board.

Diana

Well I'll be goddamned... >:(
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 05:41:52 pm by Patrick Norton »
Logged
"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

demarkus

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 243
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Rights
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2004, 10:48:51 pm »

Let's drop the existence of God issue. You still have not convinced me and I still have not convinced you...

Did you really expect to convince him?
Logged
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
- Voltaire

Tracy Saboe

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3859
    • Rand for US Senate in Kentucky!
Re:Rights
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2004, 01:24:24 am »

He's the one that asked for some "mystical imput"

I don't see what the big deal is. We were having a civil conversation.  I didn't mean to break the rules though.

Again I must apologize. But I thought that because it wasn't in the religious forum (Because I DO know the rules of the religious forum) it would probably be OK.

We even agreed with each other at the end, that rights come from the nature of man regardless of where that nature comes from. I didn't realize we were being contensious. Sorry.

Tracy
Logged
We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
Conway is Backed by Wall Street Bankers

LeopardPM

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2248
Re:Rights
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2004, 09:04:54 pm »

Let's go on to the next step. Can we all agree that our rights derive from our natures--what we are as human beings--regardless of how we got here?

'derive from our natures'? I do not understand.  I agree in so much that it is 'our nature' to communicate and create social codes for interaction that we all deem beneficial to us.  I do not agree that 'rights' themselves is something that a human being has ascribed to them:  the lone islander has no 'rights' and has all 'rights' at once, rights only apply within a social context.

michael

Tracy: do not assume that I am disallowing the existance of a creator here, my belief actually is that the creator endowed us with 'being human' which includes the ability to create rights for ourselves.
Logged
nothing to say...

BillG

  • Guest
Re:Rights
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2004, 09:11:01 pm »

Michael-

are you saying we don't have a universal right to:

a. life
b. the use of our faculties bracketed by the rights of others
c. self-ownership

and if these are not universal right do we have any at all?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2004, 09:11:18 pm by BillG (not Gates) »
Logged

Tracy Saboe

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3859
    • Rand for US Senate in Kentucky!
Re:Rights
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2004, 09:28:08 pm »

Tracy: do not assume that I am disallowing the existance of a creator here, my belief actually is that the creator endowed us with 'being human' which includes the ability to create rights for ourselves.

No that's fine. That's how my Christian Objectivist friend sythesizes the two views. They're perfectly compatible.

Tracy
Logged
We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
Conway is Backed by Wall Street Bankers

LeopardPM

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2248
Re:Rights
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2004, 11:18:19 pm »

Michael-

are you saying we don't have a universal right to:

a. life
b. the use of our faculties bracketed by the rights of others
c. self-ownership

and if these are not universal right do we have any at all?

I am saying that ANY and ALL rights (life, self-ownership, et al) are societal contracts which we form.  Our birth, by itself, does not endow any rights - it is only the joint agreement with others that we obtain 'rights'.  Like I said, the lone islander has no 'rights' and has all 'rights' at the same time.

If you and I were on an island - and we agreed that it is mutually beneficial for us to not murder each other, then we have just given ourselves the 'right to life'.  If you do not agree, then I have no 'right' and neither do you.

So, yes, we do have rights, those rights we all agree upon.

michael
Logged
nothing to say...

BillG

  • Guest
Re:Rights
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2004, 11:23:41 pm »

Quote
So, yes, we do have rights, those rights we all agree upon

does that mean our rights are socially constructed?

in other words, if we are the only two on an island and we agree that murder is ok there is no universal right against it?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up