Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Grafton  (Read 13752 times)

Tracy Saboe

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3859
    • Rand for US Senate in Kentucky!
Grafton
« on: February 26, 2004, 05:21:53 pm »

What are local property taxes in Grafton? And what is the potential for entirely eliminating them?

What does housing typically cost in Grafton? Could I get housing for less then $500/month? Currently my wife and I live in a 1 bedroom house, with a full basement and pay about $460 or so for it. It was on the low end of Sioux Falls, real estate -- about $60,000 or so. Can housing be found for that price?

What's the potential for entirely eliminating that planning board? (I know they're ellected officials which is presumably better then appointed boards, but what's the potential for eliminating it entirely.)

What's the potential for entirely dismantling the public school system in Grafton and cutting taxes allong with it, so individuals in the town can pursue more free market alternatives?

What's the potential for eliminating all the building codes and regulations, (which would enable houses to be built for cheeper.)

Bottom line. Aproxemately how much would I need to make in a month to live in Grafton? Would $1500 be enough? Would $2000?

Are some free staters potentially thinking about purchasing some of that land and building housing complexes on some of that property?

I'm excited about this. The No UN zone makes me happy, and hopefully we can completely dismantle most of the government there that already exists. It sounds like one of the sellect-men is already fairly libertarian and another is quasi-libertarian, so we would just have to try and oppose the one that's more statist initially.

What county is Grafton located in? We should try to locate in the surounding areas of Grafton if possible as well.

I'm confident that buy the year 2006 Grafton can become a "libertopia" of sorts. not as many people vote in the off-year ellections, so that's the year we could finish downsizing government there to its bare bones.

If somebody wanted to donate to this project, where would they send it? Does the Free Town Project, have a website of its own, with all its stated goals for downsizing the local government?

Tracy
Logged
We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
Conway is Backed by Wall Street Bankers

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:Grafton
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2004, 03:04:20 am »

Quote
What are local property taxes in Grafton?


They are average by NH standards.  Check out this page for info on all of the towns in NH -
http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/communpro.htm

From the Graton page,
Total Population Community County
2001                   1,149         82,589

2002 Total Tax Rate $28.64
2002 Equalization Ratio 74.9
2002 Full Value Tax Rate $21.54

The town has:
Public Library Grafton Public (if you could get rid of that you could save)
Police Department Full-time (making it part-time would save money)
Fire Department Volunteer (getting rid of this would save money)
Town Fire Insurance Rating 9/9 (the fire department must not do a good job because the fire rating is terrible, i.e. put out your own fire)
Emergency Medical Service Volunteer (nobody will vote to get rid of this and it likely uses the same building as the fire department)

Type of Government Selectmen
Annual Budget 2000 $578,402
Planning Board Elected
Industrial Plans Reviewed By Planning Board
Zoning Ordinance No Board
Master Plan 1987
Capitol Improvement Plan Yes
Mandatory Recycling Program Yes


In NH they don't seem to mind paying the government workers zero so you might be able to lower the selectmen pay to $100 per year.  Removing the planning board would save money.  Removing the master plan and capitol improvement plan would both save money (at least down the road).  Ending the mandatory recycling program would also save money.

And what is the potential for entirely eliminating them?
None.  Even if you were able to find a way to pay for the roads, eliminate the fire and police, you would still have to pay state property taxes untill the state laws are changed.

Quote
What does housing typically cost in Grafton?


2000 Census Housing Costs  
Median Value, Owner-Occupied Housing $81,300
Median Gross Rent (monthly) $500


Quote
Could I get housing for less then $500/month?

Sure, but not after a couple years (because of the build up of FSP members) unless someone builds special housing for FSP members.  Don't forget, there are always pre-made homes and trailers.

Quote
(I know they're ellected officials which is presumably better then appointed boards, but what's the potential for eliminating it entirely.)

Very high if 200-300 libertarians move to the town.

Quote
What's the potential for entirely dismantling the public school system in Grafton


The Grafton page says that it does not have any schools.  The kids must go to near-by schools.

Quote
What's the potential for eliminating all the building codes and regulations.
I think there might be state codes in NH (?)

Quote
Are some free staters potentially thinking about purchasing some of that land and building housing complexes on some of that property?

Yes, and I read about it in online versions of print newspapers.

Quote
What county is Grafton located in? We should try to locate in the surounding areas of Grafton if possible as well.

Get this, Grafton is in Grafton County.

Quote
If somebody wanted to donate to this project, where would they send it? Does the Free Town Project, have a website of its own, with all its stated goals for downsizing the local government?

All I know about is this,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Free_Town_Project/
Logged

Pawlno1

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Wher were you in seventy-two
Re:Grafton
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2004, 07:09:40 am »

not exactly Grafton but Had a friend looking for a 2 bedroom house in the countryn this fall she looked at towns within in about an hour and a half from Claremont,  rural started at about 1000 per month

have another friend looking for a starter home in move in condition in a rural setting livable bottom line about 90,000

Education mandated by state.  State says it cost about 3300 a year for state mandated part,  thats the state property tax part.  You'er also mandated to pay for special education usually the biggest single item in a school budget

you could vote out any board or stack them in your favor at Town Meeting
Logged

Tracy Saboe

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3859
    • Rand for US Senate in Kentucky!
Re:Grafton
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2004, 05:02:00 pm »

Thank you yestoAmerica and Pawlno1

Yes, My questions were only referring to local taxes and regulations.

I have every confedence that the Conservatives in the Legislature and Benson will get the State PRoperty tax repealed, and the NHLA is already working to get building codes and regulations abolished as, "they should be a local issue."

But thank you,

Tracy
Logged
We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
Conway is Backed by Wall Street Bankers

Tracy Saboe

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3859
    • Rand for US Senate in Kentucky!
Re:Grafton
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2004, 06:14:29 pm »

What's the Population of Grafton County?

Tracy
Logged
We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
Conway is Backed by Wall Street Bankers

Tracy Saboe

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3859
    • Rand for US Senate in Kentucky!
Re:Grafton
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2004, 10:43:24 pm »

A Few other things I noticed. (assuming I'm reading this correctly.)

We could get rid of the citi imposed coersive government electric, gas, and phone franchise monopolies. That would potentially improve the standard of living in that area. (Electric and land line phone and gas would get cheeper if laws forbiding competition were repealed -- assuming this is a problem and I'm reading this correctly.)

I noticed government wages went up while private wages when down :-(  We should try to immediatley put a cap on the town's government spending. We shouldn't even allow the government to adjust it for inflation or population. Like the Tax-Payers bill of rights for the State but only stronger. Perhaps also a cap on the amount of people government is allowed to hier.

Spending, employment and taxes can go down, but they shouldn't be allowed to go up. Not even for increases in population or inflation.

Quote
Total Private Industry         
Average Employment    23    31
Average Weekly Wage    $251    $242
        
Government       
Average Employment    19    19
Average Weekly Wage    $208    $220

Just some other ideas.

Tracy
Logged
We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
Conway is Backed by Wall Street Bankers

Mike Lorrey

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Live Free and Never Die
    • The International Libertarian
Re:Grafton
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2004, 09:21:23 am »

Quote
What are local property taxes in Grafton?


They are average by NH standards.  Check out this page for info on all of the towns in NH -
http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/communpro.htm

From the Graton page,
Total Population Community County
2001                   1,149         82,589

2002 Total Tax Rate $28.64
2002 Equalization Ratio 74.9
2002 Full Value Tax Rate $21.54

The town has:
Public Library Grafton Public (if you could get rid of that you could save)
Police Department Full-time (making it part-time would save money)
Fire Department Volunteer (getting rid of this would save money)
Town Fire Insurance Rating 9/9 (the fire department must not do a good job because the fire rating is terrible, i.e. put out your own fire)

This sort of conclusion exemplifies the problem with people making declaratory statements without knowing what they are talking about.

The volunteer fire department run by the town is probably the least cost alternative possible in the field of fire protection. The towns people  get cheap and free labor in an emergency while the town's credit rating gives the fire department the ability to buy the very expensive equipment cheaper and at lower interest rates than a for-profit entity could, so the consumer of the services pays the least possible under the present system.

This could possibly be privatized by making it a spin-off non-profit while the town guarantees loans made to the non-profit.

THe 9/9 rating is a rating that is partly the result of the fact that insurance companies don't like volunteer fire departments vs professional departments, and partly the fact that most of the roads in Grafton are undeveloped and there is no high capacity water system over most of the town for the fire department to use to fight most fires. They have to pump out of brooks, ponds, or wells, or carry their own water.

If you want a better rating, you will need to go the statist route to do so, because that is what the insurance companies want to see.

Quote
Emergency Medical Service Volunteer (nobody will vote to get rid of this and it likely uses the same building as the fire department)

Type of Government Selectmen
Annual Budget 2000 $578,402
Planning Board Elected
Industrial Plans Reviewed By Planning Board
Zoning Ordinance No Board

This is wrong, there is no zoning ordinance.

Quote
Master Plan 1987
Capitol Improvement Plan Yes
Mandatory Recycling Program Yes [/i]

In NH they don't seem to mind paying the government workers zero so you might be able to lower the selectmen pay to $100 per year.  Removing the planning board would save money.  Removing the master plan and capitol improvement plan would both save money (at least down the road).  Ending the mandatory recycling program would also save money.

The recycling program reduces the need for expansive town dump facilities. We don't have garbage pickup services in grafton. You do it yourself.

Quote

And what is the potential for entirely eliminating them?
None.  Even if you were able to find a way to pay for the roads, eliminate the fire and police, you would still have to pay state property taxes untill the state laws are changed.

Quote
What does housing typically cost in Grafton?


2000 Census Housing Costs  
Median Value, Owner-Occupied Housing $81,300
Median Gross Rent (monthly) $500


Quote
Could I get housing for less then $500/month?

Sure, but not after a couple years (because of the build up of FSP members) unless someone builds special housing for FSP members.  Don't forget, there are always pre-made homes and trailers.

Look to Free Town Land Development and other ventures to be developing housing in this year. Investor/future residents are welcome to become involved. You can set up a payment program.

Quote

Quote
(I know they're ellected officials which is presumably better then appointed boards, but what's the potential for eliminating it entirely.)

Very high if 200-300 libertarians move to the town.

Quote
What's the potential for entirely dismantling the public school system in Grafton


The Grafton page says that it does not have any schools.  The kids must go to near-by schools.

Yes, all we need to do is institute a voucher/rebate system to function until we have power at the state level to separate the state from the schools.

Quote

Quote
What's the potential for eliminating all the building codes and regulations.
I think there might be state codes in NH (?)

Quote
Are some free staters potentially thinking about purchasing some of that land and building housing complexes on some of that property?

Yes, and I read about it in online versions of print newspapers.

Quote
What county is Grafton located in? We should try to locate in the surounding areas of Grafton if possible as well.

Get this, Grafton is in Grafton County.

Quote
If somebody wanted to donate to this project, where would they send it? Does the Free Town Project, have a website of its own, with all its stated goals for downsizing the local government?

All I know about is this,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Free_Town_Project/

Nope, that isn't it. The proper yahoo group is FTP_Biz. This is the yahoo group of the Free Town Land Development Group we are forming. The other list is for blow hards who like to talk.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2004, 09:22:48 am by Mike Lorrey »
Logged
The International Libertarian: The Journal of Liberty For Everyone, Everywhere, All The Time

Tracy Saboe

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3859
    • Rand for US Senate in Kentucky!
Re:Grafton
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2004, 09:07:02 pm »

Thanks Mike.

The Fire Dept, could be completely privatized though.  As part of your fire insurence or something, fire protection could also be a service that you purchase.  Or it could be completely non-profit.  You might have a few different private fire protection agencies competing with each other for rates, and you might have private charities that help the less foruntate get it too. Ii'm sure free people can figure out better ways to use their money to get fire protection services, then letting the government take it and letting a bureuacracy figure out the best method.

As far as recyeling. We all know that recycling, nowdays is actually worse for the environment, then not. The act of recycling polutes the air more then making it new, and the resources really aren't that scarce. Private companies could pay to pick up other people's garbage, and build their own privately owned land-fills, that a company could build on its own property. So again. I'm sure free people could figure out for themselves, methods for the disposing of both recylables and garbage better then a government can.

I'm opposed to vouchers in principle, because in many ways, it's just a different form of a welfare program. It'll get private schools and things dependent on government money. Then regulations will turn them into just another glorified government school.

What we should do, is simply let people keep their OWN money, if they choose to not go to the public school. If they private school there kids, allow them to deduct dollar for dollar the amount they spend off their property tax.

Maynard had a website with some good discussions about how to do this. Maynard? Can you post that page again?

Tracy
« Last Edit: February 28, 2004, 09:09:17 pm by Tracy Saboe »
Logged
We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
Conway is Backed by Wall Street Bankers

Terry 1956

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2889
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Grafton
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2004, 02:58:13 pm »

Quote
What are local property taxes in Grafton?


They are average by NH standards.  Check out this page for info on all of the towns in NH -
http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/communpro.htm

From the Graton page,
Total Population Community County
2001                   1,149         82,589

2002 Total Tax Rate $28.64
2002 Equalization Ratio 74.9
2002 Full Value Tax Rate $21.54

The town has:
Public Library Grafton Public (if you could get rid of that you could save)
Police Department Full-time (making it part-time would save money)
Fire Department Volunteer (getting rid of this would save money)
Town Fire Insurance Rating 9/9 (the fire department must not do a good job because the fire rating is terrible, i.e. put out your own fire)
Emergency Medical Service Volunteer (nobody will vote to get rid of this and it likely uses the same building as the fire department)

Type of Government Selectmen
Annual Budget 2000 $578,402
Planning Board Elected
Industrial Plans Reviewed By Planning Board
Zoning Ordinance No Board
Master Plan 1987
Capitol Improvement Plan Yes
Mandatory Recycling Program Yes


In NH they don't seem to mind paying the government workers zero so you might be able to lower the selectmen pay to $100 per year.  Removing the planning board would save money.  Removing the master plan and capitol improvement plan would both save money (at least down the road).  Ending the mandatory recycling program would also save money.

And what is the potential for entirely eliminating them?
None.  Even if you were able to find a way to pay for the roads, eliminate the fire and police, you would still have to pay state property taxes untill the state laws are changed.

Quote
What does housing typically cost in Grafton?


2000 Census Housing Costs  
Median Value, Owner-Occupied Housing $81,300
Median Gross Rent (monthly) $500


Quote
Could I get housing for less then $500/month?

Sure, but not after a couple years (because of the build up of FSP members) unless someone builds special housing for FSP members.  Don't forget, there are always pre-made homes and trailers.

Quote
(I know they're ellected officials which is presumably better then appointed boards, but what's the potential for eliminating it entirely.)

Very high if 200-300 libertarians move to the town.

Quote
What's the potential for entirely dismantling the public school system in Grafton


The Grafton page says that it does not have any schools.  The kids must go to near-by schools.

Quote
What's the potential for eliminating all the building codes and regulations.
I think there might be state codes in NH (?)

Quote
Are some free staters potentially thinking about purchasing some of that land and building housing complexes on some of that property?

Yes, and I read about it in online versions of print newspapers.

Quote
What county is Grafton located in? We should try to locate in the surounding areas of Grafton if possible as well.

Get this, Grafton is in Grafton County.

Quote
If somebody wanted to donate to this project, where would they send it? Does the Free Town Project, have a website of its own, with all its stated goals for downsizing the local government?

All I know about is this,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Free_Town_Project/
                                                                               
       Something to remember a lot of states local  property tax rate is per 100 dollars of value, NH is per 1,000 dollar of value and that would include the state property tax which most states do not have. My state madates by constitution that rates be per hundred of assesed value and assesed value is 25% of apprased value. My counties property tax is 1.83 per 100 dollars of assesed value thus for a home and lot valued at 100,000 dollars, the tax rate would be against 25,000 dollars or 457 dollars in property tax.                                
  If you notice NH  has at least 4 levels of property taxes, the local government, school district, county and state
Logged

Terry 1956

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2889
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Grafton
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2004, 03:14:02 pm »

Thanks Mike.

The Fire Dept, could be completely privatized though.  As part of your fire insurence or something, fire protection could also be a service that you purchase.  Or it could be completely non-profit.  You might have a few different private fire protection agencies competing with each other for rates, and you might have private charities that help the less foruntate get it too. Ii'm sure free people can figure out better ways to use their money to get fire protection services, then letting the government take it and letting a bureuacracy figure out the best method.

As far as recyeling. We all know that recycling, nowdays is actually worse for the environment, then not. The act of recycling polutes the air more then making it new, and the resources really aren't that scarce. Private companies could pay to pick up other people's garbage, and build their own privately owned land-fills, that a company could build on its own property. So again. I'm sure free people could figure out for themselves, methods for the disposing of both recylables and garbage better then a government can.

I'm opposed to vouchers in principle, because in many ways, it's just a different form of a welfare program. It'll get private schools and things dependent on government money. Then regulations will turn them into just another glorified government school.

What we should do, is simply let people keep their OWN money, if they choose to not go to the public school. If they private school there kids, allow them to deduct dollar for dollar the amount they spend off their property tax.

Maynard had a website with some good discussions about how to do this. Maynard? Can you post that page again?

Tracy
                                                                             
 Well  basically it is close to being the same  as privitized if it is a voluntery fire department.The town where  has a voluntery fire department and the town has a better fire rating than the surrounding towns with a city fire department but the voluntery fire department doe have a subscription plan for businesses. My counties fire department is also voluntery run  on donations, we deed have a low fire rating, we could only get homeowners insurance through one insurance company. Since piped in water  and fire hydrants has been put in a lot more areas the rating has got much better but the capital cost were expensive.
Logged

Tracy Saboe

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3859
    • Rand for US Senate in Kentucky!
Re:Grafton
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2004, 04:06:25 pm »

Quote
If you notice NH  has at least 4 levels of property taxes, the local government, school district, county and state

Hopefully after taking over Grafton, we can abolish School district and most (Or all, I hope) of the  local government  ones right? And with the NHRA and Benson hopefully the Statewide property tax will be repealed too against the Clairmont decision right?. I don't want to be funding public education any more then I have too.

Tracy
Logged
We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
Conway is Backed by Wall Street Bankers

jgmaynard

  • FSP Shadow Advertising
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2288
    • The Light of Alexandria
Re:Grafton
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2004, 04:39:40 pm »

Maynard had a website with some good discussions about how to do this. Maynard? Can you post that page again?

I suppose I can. :)

JM
Logged
The Light of Alexandria By James Maynard

A history of the first 1,000 years of science, and how it changed the ancient world, and our world today.



http://www.lightofalexandria.com

jgmaynard

  • FSP Shadow Advertising
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2288
    • The Light of Alexandria
Re:Grafton
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2004, 04:45:26 pm »

 If you notice NH  has at least 4 levels of property taxes, the local government, school district, county and state

Yup. But everything is sent on one bill, with a total amount. And our counties are almost meaningless, so they're really cheap (~$2/$1000).
I live in a fairly high-tax area, and we are paying a TOTAL of $33/$1000, which includes all local, school, county and state property tax.
And also keep in mind that is without a sales or income tax. :)

And the bill passed last year will reduce the state-wide property tax basically in half from $5.80 to (IIRC) $2.90/$1000, So barring any other changes, we'll be paying $30/$1000 in two years for all those four tax levels together.

JM
Logged
The Light of Alexandria By James Maynard

A history of the first 1,000 years of science, and how it changed the ancient world, and our world today.



http://www.lightofalexandria.com

Tracy Saboe

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3859
    • Rand for US Senate in Kentucky!
Re:Grafton
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2004, 06:16:02 pm »

$33/$1000 is like Three times more then we pay here in SD.

Plus the living expenses are higher there too.

I'd really like to move to the Free Town, but it seems like housing is much more expensive.

I do realize the no sales tax. I wonder how much I pay a year in Sale Tax.  Our food budget is around $300/month so about $1,800/year.  Our sales tax is only 5-6% so I pay aproxemately $90-$108 a year in sales tax.

:-(
Logged
We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
Conway is Backed by Wall Street Bankers
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up