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Author Topic: Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?  (Read 17412 times)

<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2004, 06:27:01 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??

no trouble from me...

Also, just like Equality of Opportunity to access our Natural World is a prerequisite to Freedom - right?

Do you not agree that a free market offers equality of opportunity? Last I checked you could buy real estate on the market just as easily as the next guy...


usually people who believe in the universal right of self-ownership don't make it a requirement to purchase the right otherwise it gets transformed into a priviledge...

so which is it?

1. a universal right

or

2. a priviledge that allows the few landowners to make a perpetual claim on the wages of the many until they can make enough money to buy the universal right?

mind you the price that you pay to buy your right is mostly capitalized economic rent...

talk about double dipping!

Are we talking about France 200 years ago when only a few aristocrats owned land or the United States today where millions of people own land?

The nobles of Europe owned land based on the feudal system - by "divine right" and by the sword.

Contrast that to the Homestead act of 1862. Many people in America own land because they inherited it from people who settled it under the homestead act.

There is a marked difference between those who owned land by conquest and those who own land by homestead.

Also, your view of rights seems to be positive, where my view is negative.

Nobody has a positive right to land. There is no universal right to land. We have only the negative right to a society free from coercive force where one has the liberty to work, trade and eventually own land.


I speak of liberty as liberty FROM coercive force

You seem to speak of liberty as liberty TO equal land access

so, I take it from your non-answer that self-ownership is not a universal right...

It is an answer. I am answering that you are offering a false alternative based on flawed premises. You are asking a loaded question.

You are saying, in effect, that either I accept your positive rights view of land ownership or I do not think that self-ownership is a right.

I DO think self-ownership is a right but I DON'T think we need to institute geoism to secure said right. YOU are the one who claims that we can't have self-ownership without geoism - prove it.

Now perhaps you could answer my question in the above post? Why isn't the ability to purchase land on the free market a good enough system to insure equality? The invisible hand of the market requires only that all people be equal under the law and free from force. Everyone has the equal right to earn money and buy land on the market - equality of opportunity.

By contrast, your system imposes positive moral and legal obligations on people, which is wrong.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 07:01:03 pm by Patrick Norton »
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Terry 1956

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2004, 06:36:25 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??

no trouble from me...

Also, just like Equality of Opportunity to access our Natural World is a prerequisite to Freedom - right?
Access yes equal access no.
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Terry 1956

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2004, 06:47:41 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??

no trouble from me...

Also, just like Equality of Opportunity to access our Natural World is a prerequisite to Freedom - right?

Do you not agree that a free market offers equality of opportunity? Last I checked you could buy real estate on the market just as easily as the next guy...


usually people who believe in the universal right of self-ownership don't make it a requirement to purchase the right otherwise it gets transformed into a priviledge...

so which is it?

1. a universal right

or

2. a priviledge that allows the few landowners to make a perpetual claim on the wages of the many until they can make enough money to buy the universal right?

mind you the price that you pay to buy your right is mostly capitalized economic rent...

talk about double dipping!
                                                                           
   Last time I checked homeownership was about 50% in the US, that is not a few, now if they perfer to have a 150,000 dollar house  it is very likely they could have afforded  5 to 20 acres with their down payment instead or went together with a few like minded people and bought a large farm or even less expensive a large tract of woodland.
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<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2004, 06:52:46 pm »


Self-ownership does not equal a right to the means of sustenance. You have a right to live free from coercive force, that is the only obligation other people have toward you. Nobody is required to provide you with what you need to live - even land - you must provide that for yourself by finding it or trading for it. Why is that so bad? The previous owners were there first, so why do you claim a positive moral obligation on their part to compensate you? Just because they own land and your don't? It's not their problem. Your needs are your own responsibility, not theirs.
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2004, 07:32:46 pm »

Bill's arguments about a NEED for land, really aren't in principle any different then the socialist argument that everybody NEEDS food, or everybody NEEDS medical care, or everybody NEEDS education.

So what?

Tracy
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<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2004, 07:50:56 pm »

Bill's arguments about a NEED for land, really aren't in principle any different then the socialist argument that everybody NEEDS food, or everybody NEEDS medical care, or everybody NEEDS education.

So what?

Tracy

He would point out the distinction between labor-based and land-based property. But the fact remains that just because someone needs something does not mean that others are obligated to provide them with it. I don't care if I did not create the land with my labor. If I was there first I do not consider other people's need for land a claim to a positive obligation on my part.

Need does not equal entitlement - contrary to FDR there are no positive rights.
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2004, 10:18:57 pm »

Quote
I DO think self-ownership is a right but I DON'T think we need to institute geoism to secure said right. YOU are the one who claims that we can't have self-ownership without geoism - prove it.

How can it be a universal right if you have to purchase the right to *be* somewhere inorder to exercise your faculties and thus self-ownership?

this is a complete contradiction...
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BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2004, 10:23:54 pm »

Bill's arguments about a NEED for land, really aren't in principle any different then the socialist argument that everybody NEEDS food, or everybody NEEDS medical care, or everybody NEEDS education.

So what?

Tracy

He would point out the distinction between labor-based and land-based property. But the fact remains that just because someone needs something does not mean that others are obligated to provide them with it. I don't care if I did not create the land with my labor. If I was there first I do not consider other people's need for land a claim to a positive obligation on my part.

Need does not equal entitlement - contrary to FDR there are no positive rights.

if a few landed have an entitlement to the wages of the many landless then there can be no freedom for anyone!
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2004, 11:33:24 pm »

"If a few who have food have entitlement to the foodless their can be no freedom for anyone."

You see. Your argument is no different from the communist.

TRacy
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rdeacon

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2004, 11:37:28 pm »

What would you call somebody who falls along the barrier between conservative and libertarian on the Nolan chart?  how about liberal and libertarian?  Naturally, the purists would write them off, after all, the purists, in their quest to have a small tent and attract a small crowd, are eager to write off anyone who isn't after the immediate implementation of the zero-aggression principle.  But what do you think?

Libertarianism is neither right nor left. So why create terms such as "Right" and "Left" libertarianism?


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BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2004, 12:04:44 am »

"If a few who have food have entitlement to the foodless their can be no freedom for anyone."

You see. Your argument is no different from the communist.

TRacy

strawman...food is produced from human labor while land is not.

next!
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2004, 12:10:54 am »

No, food is also grown naturally. It exists prior to man.

Tracy
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We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

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Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
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BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2004, 12:14:26 am »

No, food is also grown naturally. It exists prior to man.

Tracy

well if this food is naturally growing on unclaimed land then anyone can have access to it - right?

if the naturally growing food is on someone's land then you have no right to it...
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nonluddite

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2004, 12:19:05 am »

"If a few who have food have entitlement to the foodless their can be no freedom for anyone."

You see. Your argument is no different from the communist.

TRacy

strawman...food is produced from human labor while land is not.

next!

Food CAN be produced from human labor, but it is not a requirement, just as land CAN be produced from human labor, but most of it is not.

Besides LVT you have also advocated collective rights to oil profits.  Is this your personal opinion or part of the Geo-Lib programme?
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BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2004, 12:43:54 am »

Quote
Besides LVT you have also advocated collective rights to oil profits

you obviously don't understand the difference between collective rights (those designated to an authority) and common rights (inalienable, individual equal access rights) - do you?

Quote
Food CAN be produced from human labor, but it is not a requirement, just as land CAN be produced from human labor, but most of it is not.

As I have stated in the past "land" represents everything that pre-exists man in the form of a location or space...which includes (in the definition) whatever mental construct you are referring to!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 12:44:52 am by BillG (not Gates) »
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