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Author Topic: Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?  (Read 17410 times)

<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2004, 06:51:39 pm »


But don't you yourself contend that your own geo-libertarianism is neither right nor left? I have seen you post this.

no Greens claim to be "neither left nor right, but out in front"

http://www.watchblog.com/thirdparty/archives/000564.html

Holistic Politics means bringing balance to two seemingly polar opposites...

equality vs. freedom!

Equality? Why?


if you have to ask then I understand why you think "Libertarianism" is beyond left and right...

equal opportunity to pursue happiness?
equal justice in the eyes of the law?
equal access right to freely express your views?

is any of this resonating?

It always has resonated. I'm all for freedom of speech, equality under the law, and the right to the pursuit of happiness.

You are not referring to actual economic equality (which is not a right), but to equality under the LAW (which is), correct?

And if so, there is no conflict between equality under the law and political freedom. "Equality vs. freedom." would have to be a false dichotomy, right?

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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
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BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2004, 06:56:03 pm »

no...left libertarianism looks to balance equality and freedom whereas right libertarianism looks to solely maximize freedom...

                                                                           
     SEK3, Kevin Carson and others used the term left to describe themself as similar to Benjamin Tucker   as Anarchist Individualist and mutualist,While  Hans Hoppe might call themselfs right libertarians Anarchist Capitalist. Carson and Tucker would be more egalitarian than Hoppe.

I would say that left-libertarianism believes that maximizing equality will produce "freedom" (depends on the definition!) and that right-libertarianism believes that maximizing freedom will produce equality (in the long run).

Unfortunately, like Communism and Capitalism, where voluntary communism can exist in a capitalist society, an egalitarian group can exist in a free society, but not the reverse...as witnessed by the neo-geo debate.

you are not looking at this along a continuem but rather from absolutes and this unfortunately presents a false dichotomy no matter what the objectivists say...

What is it that you think the objectivists say?


that one cannot hold seemingly opposing views at the same time...
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<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2004, 07:01:41 pm »

no...left libertarianism looks to balance equality and freedom whereas right libertarianism looks to solely maximize freedom...

                                                                           
     SEK3, Kevin Carson and others used the term left to describe themself as similar to Benjamin Tucker   as Anarchist Individualist and mutualist,While  Hans Hoppe might call themselfs right libertarians Anarchist Capitalist. Carson and Tucker would be more egalitarian than Hoppe.

I would say that left-libertarianism believes that maximizing equality will produce "freedom" (depends on the definition!) and that right-libertarianism believes that maximizing freedom will produce equality (in the long run).

Unfortunately, like Communism and Capitalism, where voluntary communism can exist in a capitalist society, an egalitarian group can exist in a free society, but not the reverse...as witnessed by the neo-geo debate.

you are not looking at this along a continuem but rather from absolutes and this unfortunately presents a false dichotomy no matter what the objectivists say...

What is it that you think the objectivists say?


that one cannot hold seemingly opposing views at the same time...

No. We say that if one's ideas are going to be coherent, then one must not hold two ACTUALLY opposing views at the same time.

Views that are SEEMINGLY opposing are not the same thing. You can hold two seemingly opposing views that are in reality perfectly consistent.

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<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2004, 06:11:37 pm »

FWIW, Objectivists reject many traditional dichotomies and consider many things to be perfectly compatible that have usually been considered incompatible.

We think reason and emotion are not opposites, but two perfectly compatible parts of human nature. Each element has its place - but neither contradicts the other.

We think that morality and practicality are compatible, and that ethics is a means to the practical end of sustaining one's life.



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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2004, 07:12:34 pm »

FWIW, Objectivists reject many traditional dichotomies and consider many things to be perfectly compatible that have usually been considered incompatible.

We think reason and emotion are not opposites, but two perfectly compatible parts of human nature. Each element has its place - but neither contradicts the other.

We think that morality and practicality are compatible, and that ethics is a means to the practical end of sustaining one's life.



drumroll please............................

are freedom and equality compatible?
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Morpheus

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2004, 07:27:57 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??
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SteveA

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2004, 08:06:33 pm »

I don't see any contradiction in having differing personal values.  The beauty of libertarian philosophy is that we don't expect people to desire the same lifestyle or sets of laws.  The "left" and "right" are just generalizations for what things you want to do with your freedom.
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BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2004, 08:17:00 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??

no trouble from me...

Also, just like Equality of Opportunity to access our Natural World is a prerequisite to Freedom - right?
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<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2004, 03:15:10 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??

no trouble from me...

Also, just like Equality of Opportunity to access our Natural World is a prerequisite to Freedom - right?

Equality under the law and liberty are of course compatible. However, economic equality in the way the socialists mean it is NOT compatible with liberty or justice.
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2004, 03:17:04 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??

no trouble from me...

Also, just like Equality of Opportunity to access our Natural World is a prerequisite to Freedom - right?

Do you not agree that a free market offers equality of opportunity? Last I checked you could buy real estate on the market just as easily as the next guy...

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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2004, 03:57:32 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??

no trouble from me...

Also, just like Equality of Opportunity to access our Natural World is a prerequisite to Freedom - right?

Do you not agree that a free market offers equality of opportunity? Last I checked you could buy real estate on the market just as easily as the next guy...


usually people who believe in the universal right of self-ownership don't make it a requirement to purchase the right otherwise it gets transformed into a priviledge...

so which is it?

1. a universal right

or

2. a priviledge that allows the few landowners to make a perpetual claim on the wages of the many until they can make enough money to buy the universal right?

mind you the price that you pay to buy your right is mostly capitalized economic rent...

talk about double dipping!
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BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2004, 04:05:18 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??

no trouble from me...

Also, just like Equality of Opportunity to access our Natural World is a prerequisite to Freedom - right?

Equality under the law and liberty are of course compatible. However, economic equality in the way the socialists mean it is NOT compatible with liberty or justice.

agreed - they are mostly talking about equality of outcome which is anti-liberty...
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<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2004, 04:22:01 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??

no trouble from me...

Also, just like Equality of Opportunity to access our Natural World is a prerequisite to Freedom - right?

Do you not agree that a free market offers equality of opportunity? Last I checked you could buy real estate on the market just as easily as the next guy...


usually people who believe in the universal right of self-ownership don't make it a requirement to purchase the right otherwise it gets transformed into a priviledge...

so which is it?

1. a universal right

or

2. a priviledge that allows the few landowners to make a perpetual claim on the wages of the many until they can make enough money to buy the universal right?

mind you the price that you pay to buy your right is mostly capitalized economic rent...

talk about double dipping!

Are we talking about France 200 years ago when only a few aristocrats owned land or the United States today where millions of people own land?

The nobles of Europe owned land based on the feudal system - by "divine right" and by the sword.

Contrast that to the Homestead act of 1862. Many people in America own land because they inherited it from people who settled it under the homestead act.

There is a marked difference between those who owned land by conquest and those who own land by homestead.

Also, your view of rights seems to be positive, where my view is negative.

Nobody has a positive right to land. There is no universal right to land. We have only the negative right to a society free from coercive force where one has the liberty to work, trade and eventually own land.


I speak of liberty as liberty FROM coercive force

You seem to speak of liberty as liberty TO equal land access
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 04:31:38 pm by Patrick Norton »
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2004, 04:36:34 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??

no trouble from me...

Also, just like Equality of Opportunity to access our Natural World is a prerequisite to Freedom - right?

Equality under the law and liberty are of course compatible. However, economic equality in the way the socialists mean it is NOT compatible with liberty or justice.

agreed - they are mostly talking about equality of outcome which is anti-liberty...

Yes.

The seeming "contradiction" between equalty and liberty is a false alternative - as long as we are talking about equality of opportunity and not outcome.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 04:36:51 pm by Patrick Norton »
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2004, 04:52:53 pm »

Equality under the Law is a prerequisite to Freedom. Without the former, the latter is impossible.

Why do you have such trouble with that??

no trouble from me...

Also, just like Equality of Opportunity to access our Natural World is a prerequisite to Freedom - right?

Do you not agree that a free market offers equality of opportunity? Last I checked you could buy real estate on the market just as easily as the next guy...


usually people who believe in the universal right of self-ownership don't make it a requirement to purchase the right otherwise it gets transformed into a priviledge...

so which is it?

1. a universal right

or

2. a priviledge that allows the few landowners to make a perpetual claim on the wages of the many until they can make enough money to buy the universal right?

mind you the price that you pay to buy your right is mostly capitalized economic rent...

talk about double dipping!

Are we talking about France 200 years ago when only a few aristocrats owned land or the United States today where millions of people own land?

The nobles of Europe owned land based on the feudal system - by "divine right" and by the sword.

Contrast that to the Homestead act of 1862. Many people in America own land because they inherited it from people who settled it under the homestead act.

There is a marked difference between those who owned land by conquest and those who own land by homestead.

Also, your view of rights seems to be positive, where my view is negative.

Nobody has a positive right to land. There is no universal right to land. We have only the negative right to a society free from coercive force where one has the liberty to work, trade and eventually own land.


I speak of liberty as liberty FROM coercive force

You seem to speak of liberty as liberty TO equal land access

so, I take it from your non-answer that self-ownership is not a universal right...
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