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Author Topic: Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?  (Read 17411 times)

<Patrick>

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Libertarianism is neither right nor left. So why create terms such as "Right" and "Left" libertarianism?

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BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2004, 07:47:02 pm »

no...left libertarianism looks to balance equality and freedom whereas right libertarianism looks to solely maximize freedom...

http://holisticpolitics.org

Left Libertarianism
A doctrine that sees meritocracy as the best political regime. It accepts standpoint of right libertarianism that every individual has exclusive right to dispose with everything he has earned only with the help of his talents and efforts. But the left libertarianism rejects the thesis of its right relative that the initial acquisition of natural resources could be unrestricted or only mildly limited. This theory claims that external or natural resources should be divided equally to all members of a society. This means that every individual starting a life should get a right to use equal amount of natural resources as everybody else. (For this reason the doctrine is also called starting-gate theory.) What an individual makes of these resources afterwards depends on his personal characteristics, whatever they are, and bears full responsibility for this. It must be stressed that limitations put on the personal control of external resources do not apply only to initial acquisition but also to inheritance of property which is severely restricted too. In short, this theory wants to exclude impact of received social position of an individual on his economic destiny and tries to secure success in life to the talented and industrious.

Right Libertarianism
Theory that defends unlimited laissez-faire capitalism as the only morally justified regime. The main assumptions of this doctrine are twofold: the right of every individual to unlimited utilisation of his own person (self-ownership); and the right to unrestricted, or relatively mildly limited, appropriation of external resources. The first means that an individual has exclusive right to all the goods that are product of use of his talents and efforts. The second means that he has either the right to appropriate all natural resources which he finds and takes before others, or that such an appropriation is limited only by the fact that he must not put others in the position which is worse than the one in which they were before his acquisition of the resources. Furthermore, everything that an individual acquires with the help of his abilities, efforts, and use of thus appropriated resources, he can also freely exchange for the goods of others. If such a trade was voluntary, its results are just. This theory is interested only in this that the above procedures are satisfied and that nobody has used violence to take some goods from others. If things go that way, a distribution of resources is just regardless of its outcome, i.e. it is morally right no matter how much someone possesses at the end, and even if somebody does not have anything at all. Forceful intervention of the state for the sake of helping the poor is not allowed.

http://www.distributive-justice.com/theory/left-lib-en.htm
http://www.distributive-justice.com/theory/right-lib-en.htm
« Last Edit: February 25, 2004, 07:47:30 pm by BillG (not Gates) »
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<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2004, 07:49:08 pm »


But don't you yourself contend that your own geo-libertarianism is neither right nor left? I have seen you post this.
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
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http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2004, 08:43:11 pm »


But don't you yourself contend that your own geo-libertarianism is neither right nor left? I have seen you post this.

no Greens claim to be "neither left nor right, but out in front"

http://www.watchblog.com/thirdparty/archives/000564.html

Holistic Politics means bringing balance to two seemingly polar opposites...

equality vs. freedom!
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nonluddite

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2004, 12:38:48 am »

no...left libertarianism looks to balance equality and freedom whereas right libertarianism looks to solely maximize freedom...


I would say that left-libertarianism believes that maximizing equality will produce "freedom" (depends on the definition!) and that right-libertarianism believes that maximizing freedom will produce equality (in the long run).

Unfortunately, like Communism and Capitalism, where voluntary communism can exist in a capitalist society, an egalitarian group can exist in a free society, but not the reverse...as witnessed by the neo-geo debate.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2004, 12:39:46 am by nonluddite »
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<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2004, 12:47:04 am »


But don't you yourself contend that your own geo-libertarianism is neither right nor left? I have seen you post this.

no Greens claim to be "neither left nor right, but out in front"

http://www.watchblog.com/thirdparty/archives/000564.html

Holistic Politics means bringing balance to two seemingly polar opposites...

equality vs. freedom!

Equality? Why?
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2004, 09:46:17 am »


But don't you yourself contend that your own geo-libertarianism is neither right nor left? I have seen you post this.

no Greens claim to be "neither left nor right, but out in front"

http://www.watchblog.com/thirdparty/archives/000564.html

Holistic Politics means bringing balance to two seemingly polar opposites...

equality vs. freedom!

Equality? Why?


if you have to ask then I understand why you think "Libertarianism" is beyond left and right...

equal opportunity to pursue happiness?
equal justice in the eyes of the law?
equal access right to freely express your views?

is any of this resonating?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2004, 09:49:22 am by BillG (not Gates) »
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RhythmStar

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2004, 12:39:50 pm »

The problem is in the different ways right and left libs define 'equal'.  

The right lib hears 'equal' and thinks "making one person's pocket fatter by forcibly slimming a more successful person's pocket".  The left lib hears 'equal' and thinks "secure everyone's equal access to opportunity and equal protections under the law."  

The two viewpoints aren't really that incompatible, but until you decompose the implicit definitions, all you can do is argue in circles.

RS
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Terry 1956

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2004, 04:36:48 pm »

no...left libertarianism looks to balance equality and freedom whereas right libertarianism looks to solely maximize freedom...

                                                                           
     SEK3, Kevin Carson and others used the term left to describe themself as similar to Benjamin Tucker   as Anarchist Individualist and mutualist,While  Hans Hoppe might call themselfs right libertarians Anarchist Capitalist. Carson and Tucker would be more egalitarian than Hoppe.

I would say that left-libertarianism believes that maximizing equality will produce "freedom" (depends on the definition!) and that right-libertarianism believes that maximizing freedom will produce equality (in the long run).

Unfortunately, like Communism and Capitalism, where voluntary communism can exist in a capitalist society, an egalitarian group can exist in a free society, but not the reverse...as witnessed by the neo-geo debate.
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Morpheus

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2004, 04:42:27 pm »

Define "equal access to opportunity".

And are you Geo-Libs accusing "Right-Wing" Libertarians like me of being AGAINST equality under the Law??
« Last Edit: February 26, 2004, 04:43:26 pm by Morpheus »
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BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2004, 04:48:04 pm »

Define "equal access to opportunity".

And are you Geo-Libs accusing "Right-Wing" Libertarians like me of being AGAINST equality under the Law??

no, just giving common understandings of the use of the word equality in different context that might ring a bell...

don't get yer knickers in a twist quite yet...
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BillG

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2004, 04:51:00 pm »

no...left libertarianism looks to balance equality and freedom whereas right libertarianism looks to solely maximize freedom...

                                                                           
     SEK3, Kevin Carson and others used the term left to describe themself as similar to Benjamin Tucker   as Anarchist Individualist and mutualist,While  Hans Hoppe might call themselfs right libertarians Anarchist Capitalist. Carson and Tucker would be more egalitarian than Hoppe.

I would say that left-libertarianism believes that maximizing equality will produce "freedom" (depends on the definition!) and that right-libertarianism believes that maximizing freedom will produce equality (in the long run).

Unfortunately, like Communism and Capitalism, where voluntary communism can exist in a capitalist society, an egalitarian group can exist in a free society, but not the reverse...as witnessed by the neo-geo debate.

you are not looking at this along a continuem but rather from absolutes and this unfortunately presents a false dichotomy no matter what the objectivists say...
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Morpheus

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2004, 04:51:11 pm »

Then what ever kind of "equality" do you support besides equality UNDER THE LAW???
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Morpheus

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2004, 04:53:57 pm »

Quote
you are not looking at this along a continuem but rather from absolutes and this unfortunately presents a false dichotomy no matter what the objectivists say...


What about what he has just said is wrong??

Come on, relativist. Lay your cards on the table and actually speak COHERENTLY for once.
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<Patrick>

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Re:Isn't "Left" or "Right" Libertarianism a contradiction in terms?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2004, 06:43:54 pm »

no...left libertarianism looks to balance equality and freedom whereas right libertarianism looks to solely maximize freedom...

                                                                           
     SEK3, Kevin Carson and others used the term left to describe themself as similar to Benjamin Tucker   as Anarchist Individualist and mutualist,While  Hans Hoppe might call themselfs right libertarians Anarchist Capitalist. Carson and Tucker would be more egalitarian than Hoppe.

I would say that left-libertarianism believes that maximizing equality will produce "freedom" (depends on the definition!) and that right-libertarianism believes that maximizing freedom will produce equality (in the long run).

Unfortunately, like Communism and Capitalism, where voluntary communism can exist in a capitalist society, an egalitarian group can exist in a free society, but not the reverse...as witnessed by the neo-geo debate.

you are not looking at this along a continuem but rather from absolutes and this unfortunately presents a false dichotomy no matter what the objectivists say...

What is it that you think the objectivists say?
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org
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