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Poll

Do you consider yourself a racial separatist?

yes
- 0 (0%)
no
- 6 (100%)

Total Members Voted: 4


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Author Topic: The FSP Poll: racial separatist  (Read 5453 times)

Jim1

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The FSP Poll: racial separatist
« on: October 09, 2002, 08:43:51 pm »

I assume no one is going to say yes.
This will counter media claims to the contrary.
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Elizabeth

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Re:The FSP Poll: racial separatist
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2002, 10:02:59 pm »

This is a really[/i] bad idea for many reasons:

1)  We already have a FAQ that addresses this

2)  Anyone can vote who visits this forum, whether they have anything to do with the FSP or not

3)  There's no statistical significance to the results because it's completely self selected

4)  Anyone visiting the site might actually think this is an issue, when it is not.

Are you trying to attract bad attention?  ???
« Last Edit: October 09, 2002, 11:08:15 pm by Elizabeth »
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Jim1

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Re:The FSP Poll: racial separatist
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2002, 11:18:43 pm »


1)  We already have a FAQ that addresses this


That's not good enough. Who wrote it? Did every member sign it? If they had, that would still be irrelevant because a FAQ is assumed to be written by a handful of people (or one) to decribe many times more people and with the best possible spin. A poll has none of these drawbacks. People speaking for themselves can be more convincing than others speaking for them.


2)  Anyone can vote who visits this forum, whether they have anything to do with the FSP or not


That could be a problem even though this is not the official poll and is just one practice question on an open web forum. Ideally official questions should be part of each individual profile so we know who was a member, etc.


3)  There's no statistical significance to the results because it's completely self selected


It only has to be effective as PR. People speaking for themselves can be more convincing than others speaking for them.


4)  Anyone visiting the site might actually think this is an issue, when it is not.


THE MEDIA WILL MAKE THIS AN ISSUE AS SOON AS THEY LEARN ABOUT US. Trying to avoid the issue lets the media define us. It is the very worst thing we can do.

Frankly I'm shocked at he timidity expressed so far. If we are going to succeed, then we must all release our inner Clinton. ;)
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Elizabeth

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Re:The FSP Poll: racial separatist
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2002, 11:57:15 pm »

We haven't avoided the issue, it's in the FAQ.  Which was written by the founder and president of the FSP.  Which states one of the few "official" positions the FSP holds.  And that's the answer for the press, not this meaningless, attention-seeking poll.

You are making trouble where none exists, while purporting to solve a nonexistent problem.  You are attracting attention deliberately to an explosive issue, and I have to wonder why.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2002, 01:13:41 am by Elizabeth »
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Solitar

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Re:The FSP Poll: racial separatist
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2002, 01:31:13 am »

Quote
1)  We already have a FAQ that addresses this
Elizabeth, I too have a personality and intelligence which gets impatient with people when something has been explained once. But I've also learned that once or thrice or several times is not enough when the point is very, very, important. The FAQ is not enough Elizabeth, and you should know very well that it is not because THE FAQ IS NOT THE FSP's CONSTITUTION. Or is it? Jim also writes:
Quote
That's not good enough. Who wrote it? Did every member sign it?
Jim, the above is a very good point. In which case the FAQ has drawbacks similar to what secessionist critics of the US Constitution say of it. Because it has not been explictly adopted by a majority vote of all members it may not represent or have the backing of all the members and the media will make that an issue eventually.

Quote
2)  Anyone can vote who visits this forum, whether they have anything to do with the FSP or not.
And anyone can speak here or elsewhere about the FSP whether they have anything to do with the FSP or not (like Williams did). But not anyone who "visits" can vote. Unregistered guests can not (see my footnote below) though anyone can register to post here. Jim addresses this:
Quote
That could be a problem even though this is not the official poll and  is just one practice question on an open web forum. Ideally official questions should be part of each individual profile so we know who was a member, etc.

Quote
3)  There's no statistical significance to the results because it's completely self selected
The same thing applies to the FAQ because it does not speak for all members - though hopefully it does - yet there will be no assurance good enough for the FSP's opponents. Opponents? Yes, they are lurking out there and if the FSP is not prepared for them it will get ambushed (or it will anyway). It is best to preempt such attacks than to try to rebutt. I've learned that the several-hundred word rebuttal does little to turn public opinion formed by a 50 word first-strike accusation. Jim puts it thusly:
Quote
It only has to be effective as PR. People speaking for themselves can be more convincing than others speaking for them.
Elizabeth, The FAQ does get to some of the issues first. But the FSP must better publicize them, and repeat them often in as many places and ways as possible before the attack sharks strike. It also is yet another way to reach people visiting the site. One mention in the FAQ is not enough.

Quote
4)  Anyone visiting the site might actually think this is an issue, when it is not.
Elizabeth, some people hearing of the FSP and/or visiting this site come to it with the presumption that this is yet another one of "those groups". Jim is entirely correct in the following; and yes, others' and my experience (bad word?) proves Jim is correct:
Quote
THE MEDIA WILL MAKE THIS AN ISSUE AS SOON AS THEY  LEARN ABOUT US. Trying to avoid the issue lets the media define us. It is the very worst thing we can do.

Elizabeth later writes:
Quote
Are you trying to attract bad attention?
Elizabeth, You can try to run or hide in a hole until the looming (and it is looming regardless of your blinders) trouble digs you out or you can stand at face it. You have better chances with the latter. As soon as the FSP starts gaining publicity it will gain hostile attention. Jim adds to efforts by some here to have posts all over this forum which hopefully can counter those enemies or critics who will assume the FSP is another one of those secessionist, separatist, racist, wacko-militia anarchists trying to overthrow the government.

Note that any movement perceived as a serious attempt to do the latter will draw more than just "bad attention". The FSP must disavow and distance itself from these other movements as much and as strongly and as repetitively as it possibly can. If radically outspoken proponents of such movements can be discouraged from joining the FSP in the first place, it will be far better for the FSP in the long run. Such weeding out of rogues will be especially important after it moves into a state already populated by several hundred thousand people who will take the most outspoken anti-government examples as excuses to destroy the FSP and its efforts. If proponents of such movements want to have an anarchist separtist secessionist state then they can start their own in an unpopulated area. The FSP must do everything it can to prevent them from hijacking this effort to move into an already populated state and help its residents gain back the liberties they use to have -- which defines a minarchist state -- the best we can hope for in our lifetime without starting from scratch in the wilderness.

And yes, dear proponents of such movements, the above comments were directed at you. >:(

Footnote regarding voting by guests. I use Netscape to post here. Even though its loading of FSP's pages is slower than molasses in a Vermont January at least it remembers my password and keeps me logged in. For faster page loading I use Opera to read this forum. Yet Opera can not remember my password or keep me logged in - thus I am a "guest" while using Opera. As such I can not vote in the polls.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2002, 02:21:12 am by Joe, aka, Solitar »
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MouseBorg

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Re:The FSP Poll: racial separatist
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2002, 03:32:34 am »

I can see objections to such a poll (though I understand its intent), while at the same time seeing serious merit to protecting ourselves from media spin. In fact, the media aspect is something I've mentioned quite a number of times, in no uncertain terms, in various other threads, and will likely continue to do so.

Frankly I can't propose an immediate solution, except perhaps an expansion to the FAQ... or perhaps another doccument altogether, created and endorsed by those who wish to do so, with a statement of intent, and such. IMO, such would need to include all that FSP already states, with perhaps amplification in those areas where contention may be. On areas of contention, note such within the doccument.

This isn't even close to my field of experience, however I do know from experience that we have some very bright folks in this forum who are very well equipped to handle such issues. If the poll isn't gonna float, then lets figure out something else. We can even be original too. We've seen evidence of some extremely creative people around here... lets use that. If we can't do that type of thing now, we certainly won't be able to later.

Now I gotta confess something in ref to the current poll... This may come as a terrible shock, but I also have a bizarre dark side... No, I'm not a racist... far from it... my 2nd wife was from what most people consider a different race than my own (I only recognize human as race, but most see things otherwise sigh...).

However, when I saw that poll, you wouldn't believe how much self control it required to not select the most controversial selection available... just to be a s**t disturber, if nothing else. I'm sure I'm the only person who is affected in such a way, however... I wouldn't count on it.

(Oh, and not to worry... I won't be voting on that poll. I'm an old fart, and have learned just enough self control over the years to avoid such.)  ;D
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Mega Joule

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Re:The FSP Poll: racial separatist
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2002, 04:49:32 am »


Now I gotta confess something in ref to the current poll... This may come as a terrible shock, but I also have a bizarre dark side... No, I'm not a racist... far from it... my 2nd wife was from what most people consider a different race than my own (I only recognize human as race, but most see things otherwise sigh...).

Heck, I don’t even go so far as racial-separatist in regard to species.  I always cohabitate with a variety of other species in my home…(dogs, birds, chinchillas)…I love ‘em all.

On a more serious note:
Quote

Frankly I can't propose an immediate solution, except perhaps an expansion to the FAQ... or perhaps another document altogether, created and endorsed by those who wish to do so, with a statement of intent, and such. IMO, such would need to include all that FSP already states, with perhaps amplification in those areas where contention may be. On areas of contention, note such within the document.


First, I do not think an additional document will help at this time because it will not satisfy the needs and desires of those seeking a more active voice of the people.  An amended version may however be required or desirable in the future.  As far as using the polling feature here to lend that voice to the members, but setting up polls in which only FSP members can vote would at least remove the possibility of saboteurs muddying the results.   I do not know whether that is possible or not on the board.  

Secondly, I’m not sure how such polls are going to help us with media relations.  It seems to me that such polls, being informal, would have little impact one way or the other.  From my observations here, most of the polls on the forum attract only a small percentage of people on the boards, which is in turn only about 25% of our actual membership.  Thus a poll would not be statistically reflective of the views of the membership anyway.

Finally, I think that polls on highly charged issues such as racism might prematurely bring us the type of negative PR that Joe was speaking of.  It may be time for us to give serious consideration to how we are going to build a PR staff.  We need more than just Elizabeth and Jason.  We need individuals skilled in public speaking and rhetorical writing who possess expertise in potentially volatile areas i.e. political philosophy, education, social reform, racial relations, etc. who can address questions and media assaults pertaining to their particular capability.


Meg
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Dex Sinister

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Re:The FSP Poll: racial separatist
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2002, 04:58:21 am »


For faster page loading I use Opera to read this forum. Yet Opera can not remember my password or keep me logged in - thus I am a "guest" while using Opera. As such I can not vote in the polls.


Strange - I use Opera with no problems.

Dex
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debra

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Re:The FSP Poll: racial separatist
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2002, 10:59:57 am »

Quote
1)  We already have a FAQ that addresses this

Elizabeth, I too have a personality and intelligence which gets impatient with people when something has been explained once. But I've also learned that once or thrice or several times is not enough when the point is very, very, important. The FAQ is not enough Elizabeth, and you should know very well that it is not because THE FAQ IS NOT THE FSP's CONSTITUTION. Or is it?

Jim also writes:
Quote
That's not good enough. Who wrote it? Did every member sign it?

Jim, the above is a very good point. In which case the FAQ has drawbacks similar to what secessionist critics of the US Constitution say of it. Because it has not been explictly adopted by a majority vote of all members it may not represent or have the backing of all the members and the media will make that an issue eventually.

Q. Why don't we make common cause with white separatists?

A. The Free State Project unequivocally condemns racism and all other forms of bigotry. Although we do not support a government ban on racial discrimination by private individuals, and we do not attempt to divine our members' private thoughts, we will exercise our right as a private organization to expel anyone who undertakes racial agitation.


The "private organization" as stated in the FAQ is collectively the organizers as listed on www.freestateproject.org/about.htm, i.e. the corporation "The Free State Project, Inc."  Therefore it is irrelevant whether  "everyone adopted the FAQs". The organization did, and people who choose not to follow the the organization's ground rules as outlined in the FAQ - by indulging in racial agitation - are free to not join the organization, or be expelled at the organization's discretion.  

This is a private organization, NOT a government, so there's no "Constitution" involved. And this private organization condemns racism and bigotry, and will expel those who agitate in this manner.  Accept it or leave.  Free association, people. If you don't get it, you don't get the point of the FSP.

As far as the media is concerned, the FAQ again states it succinctly: We don't favor a government ban on racial discrimination by individuals, but we don't approve of it ourselves (as an organization). Therefore, while individuals are free to *think* whatever they want (since we aren't mindreaders and don't believe in "thought crime"), any participant who indulges in racial agitation (overt racism, ethnic slurs, promoting a racial agenda at the expense of others, or similar) will be expelled from our private organization.  

That said, I think we've covered the topic enough.  There are plenty of sites on the 'net to discuss it, and you can private-message each other as well.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2002, 02:33:13 pm by Debra J Ricketts »
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