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Author Topic: Mexico City  (Read 18828 times)

LeopardPM

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2004, 01:42:31 pm »

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Michael, I am getting to like you.
a natural phenomenon<sp?> - I like you also, if for no other reason then because you have 'penguin' in your name...

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This is why I advocate oversight.
ok, here we go... who exactly does this 'overseeing'?  I assume it will be either a human or group of humans, each with the distinct possiblity for having the same exact human qualities which you are deploring.  And so you would abdicate power (or a portion of it) over your life to make choices to a group of people with their own agendas and priorities?  By granting them power does two things: it ATTRACTS people with desires to institute and accumulate power over others, and it opens an avenue for others to actively seek to manipulate this power.  

Truth is, whatever system we devise, the heart of it will be humans.  Good and Bad humans.  The only way to mitigate the potential for abuse of 'rights' of individuals is to deny the power in the first place (ie: a company, no matter how large, does not have the 'right' to aggress against you or physically harm you - the government does and that is scarey).

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Like government and religion, I think free trade should exist to serve the public.
free trade is just a term describing a natural condition that exists between individuals without outside interference.  People CHOOSE to trade freely because it is in their best interests.  Their is no 'public' - only groups of individuals, each with their own priorities an desires/wants/needs.  Nothing can 'serve the public', it can only benefit some while harming others.  The 'public' as you term it is best served when 'allowed' to express their desires freely - when people make wrong or harmful choices, they pay the natural consequence, it is in this way that the 'public' learns and continuously makes 'better' choices in the future.  Denying or instituting other consequences (regulation, fines, fees, taxes, etc) is a misguided attempt at moral manipulation with the result being: lazy thinking, abdication of responsibility, general sloth.  When the market determines a 'universal' truth or idea (such as how we 'all' believe it is wrong to be murdered or aggressed against) then, by virtually unanimous consent, the idea becomes part of the 'law'.

running low on time, will continue later on - it has been a pleasure, Mr. Penguin!

michael
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2004, 02:17:23 pm »

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Okay.
Tony, we agree that only through constant vigilance can we keep our freedom. I'm preaching the gospel of decentralization.
Freedom and Power. They might be synonymous. They're definitely linked. I think as much of that freedom and power as possible must be kept at the lowest possible level of control. In political terms that means it must be from the municipal level, not the federal.


I agree with you here. I would specify further the town government is at pleasure of the people.

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In private terms it means the individual, not the corporation. The consolidation of great power anywhere is a dangerous thing.
You correctly show that the free market has automatic controls built in. You know what, Tony? So does the Constitution.


I am talking about objective laws of nature, like the law of supply and demand. Constitution is not the objective law. It is set of privileges given by the people to artificial construction – namely government. It was supposed to be just a chain (hand cuffs) limiting government’s powers. What happened next is that government (servant or slave of people) decided to ignore the master’s rules, grew big and powerful and is bullying the master. It now calls itself master and takes us all as its servants. Happens all the time when people are not watching – think of gardener in your garden if you let him do whatever he wants, or look at the people providing help to elderly and incapable of taking care of self. Did you hear about companion killing, or stilling money from elderly?


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To think either is incorruptible because of internal controls is just naive.
 There are always those forces at work which will find ways to get around those safety measures and corrupt the system. Vigilance against government corruption must come from outside of government; vigilance against corruption of free trade must come from outside the free trade system.

Constitution was not providing internal controls. It was meant to work with the vigilance of the people and the people failed to do their part. But objective laws of universe in this case law of supply and demand are enough to have equilibrium and stability in the market.
You are outside corporation and you are controlling it by voting with your wallet. No business will grow if it will not be voted into existence with customer’s wallets. If business has many happy customers it will grow big. But will never achieve monopoly. It would be impossible. Any monopoly was happening after government mangling with the business. So government created anti monopoly rules while it was cause of monopoly in the first place.
BTW government involved in the business constitutes fascism. All you can see around is in fact fascism, safe when business is actually owned by government – this of course is communism.
Also if you read book “Creature from Jekyll Island” by Griffin (second most important book after bible –religious people say), you can see that cartels want to create global control system with all property owned by one world government. These cartels deliberately avoid word “socialism” to not scare the public before time.
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2004, 02:43:38 pm »

Anyone else want to open up a third front on me?  Mike, I haven't felt the hot sting of your rhetoric lately.
Seriously, I welcome the opposition or I wouldn't have asked for it.  I'll try and have full responses up no later than tomorrow.
Preview:

Michael, we are getting closer.  I think I actually agree with more from your last post than I disagree with.

Tony, your caveman-style prose is simply intoxicating; but I'm afraid my business with you is much further from conclusion.  I'm not talking about messing with the natural law of supply and demand.  I'm saying okay, free trade is corrupted by government intervention.  Yes.  Fine.  But free trade is also corrupted from within.  This is what I will get into more when I get to it.

Andrew
« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 02:44:08 pm by penguinsscareme »
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2004, 03:49:36 pm »

Tony, your caveman-style prose is simply intoxicating; but I'm afraid my business with you is much further from conclusion.  I'm not talking about messing with the natural law of supply and demand.  I'm saying okay, free trade is corrupted by government intervention.  Yes.  Fine.  But free trade is also corrupted from within.  This is what I will get into more when I get to it.

Andrew
Dying in anticipation.
If person A goes in to business agreement with person B voluntarily it is something corrupted from within? Or it is if person A is bigger business than person B, getting in voluntary agreement? Or is it when person A is big corporation and person B is simply individual – that would create internal corruption? Or maybe when business agreement is between big corporation buying service from small businessman called worker?
Well my friend, you are lucky back in XIX century Marx wrote Capital and defined sub-group of businessmen relations calling class of capitalists and the other class of laborers. Without this classification you would be in trouble.
BTW, I am using here definition of person as stated by XIV amendment to the constitution. If we do not wave voluntarily our rights business will not be a person and just property, and person would mean sovereign individual having or having not a property. In fact such person will always have some property – at least own body, skills, time to engage in business.
Forgive me my friend cave – style, as you can see this is not my mothers language. I come from communist block. This actually is advantage since I can now smell socialist (both going towards communism as well as going towards fascism) for hundreds miles away.
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2004, 07:21:12 pm »

Michael, I am trying to achieve the reclamation of power over self, not its abdication!
Who's going to be the regulating force?  The only appropriate body for that is groups of individuals.  Consumer groups.  Built in the same way as Underwriters' Laboratories and Consumer Reports.  Mike gave me that idea.
You rightly point out that people choose to trade freely because it is in their own best interest.  But corporations act in the same way.  Corporations are entities that trade in their own best interest.  Some corporations are actually big enough to manipulate entire markets to their own interest.  And it is inevitable that the corporate interest is to create a dependency in the public, or the individual, if you like.  Several years ago Toys R Us used its strength to leverage a toy wholesaler to supply only Toys R Us.  Competing businesses were cut completely out of the loop.  Toys R Us served its own interest very well in this case; the interest of the individual consumer was very, very badly served.  I'd say violated.  This is an example of what I mean when I talk about the free market becoming bloated and self-serving.  This is documented fact which you can confirm for yourself.  And it tears me up inside that this sort of thing can happen under the guise of free trade.  That's not what I call free trade.  I'd like to see a form of regulation that could stop that from happening.  Better yet, I'd like to be smart enough to invent a system that didn't need to be regulated against a superpower.  Free trade on the scale of a Toys R Us becomes anti-competitive.  It is destructive to exactly the ideal that allowed for its existence in the first place.
I'm not a busybody; I have better things to do than worry about somebody else's business.  But stories like the one above lead me to believe that megacorporations are my enemy.  There are entities within the free market that excercise unwarranted control over individuals, that limit the choices available to me, to you.
I'm trying to tell you that I want what you want, and megacorporations are a threat to that.  I'm telling you I'm worried about it and I think you should be too.

Andrew
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2004, 07:48:46 pm »

Tony, you've got me wrong about a number of things.  I am not a marxist.  I am not a socialist.  I am not a communist.  I am not a fascist.  And I am not your friend.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2004, 12:05:24 am »

Anyone else want to open up a third front on me?  Mike, I haven't felt the hot sting of your rhetoric lately.
Seriously, I welcome the opposition or I wouldn't have asked for it.  I'll try and have full responses up no later than tomorrow.

All I can say is not to put your faith in groups. Caveat emptor means it is all ultimately your own responsibility to watch out for yourself. Trust the individual, trust your fellow man, but most of all, trust yourself. Put not your faith in groups, of any kind be they governments, corporations, or anything else.

Quote
Preview:

Michael, we are getting closer.  I think I actually agree with more from your last post than I disagree with.

Tony, your caveman-style prose is simply intoxicating; but I'm afraid my business with you is much further from conclusion.  I'm not talking about messing with the natural law of supply and demand.  I'm saying okay, free trade is corrupted by government intervention.  Yes.  Fine.  But free trade is also corrupted from within.  This is what I will get into more when I get to it.


Tony is a polish immigrant, so please don't put down his prose (hey, in Poland, that grammar structure is elegant...;) )
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2004, 12:00:52 pm »

Yeah, I actually felt really bad about that until he started calling me a marxist.  Knowing the intimate familiarity he has with those concepts actually makes the insults that much more deeply meant and deeply felt.  It's no big deal, though.  Porcupines can't be too easily hurt.
Hey, Tony, I'm sorry I criticized your English; I wouldn't have done it if I'd known you were Polish.

Mike, my mistrust in groups is exactly why I fear corporations almost as much as government, and why I keep pushing for decentralization everywhere we can cause it.

Andrew
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2004, 04:19:24 pm »

Mike, my mistrust in groups is exactly why I fear corporations almost as much as government, and why I keep pushing for decentralization everywhere we can cause it.

This is entirely appropriate. Distrust of corporations is widespread among us here, so you aren't alone. The problem is that the behaviors which spawned that mistrust were not enabled by the corporations, they were enabled by government.

Firstly, government in the late 19th century started giving very excessive powers to corporations. Secondly, the whole tax structure is arranged to put excessive emphasis upon quarterly profits instead of long term growth. Fixing these two areas will return the behavior of corporations to a much more benign level, because they would once again be subsumed by the market, requiring them to be much more responsive to the consumer without needing government oversight agencies.

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BillG

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2004, 05:42:53 pm »

Mike, my mistrust in groups is exactly why I fear corporations almost as much as government, and why I keep pushing for decentralization everywhere we can cause it.

This is entirely appropriate. Distrust of corporations is widespread among us here, so you aren't alone. The problem is that the behaviors which spawned that mistrust were not enabled by the corporations, they were enabled by government.

Firstly, government in the late 19th century started giving very excessive powers to corporations. Secondly, the whole tax structure is arranged to put excessive emphasis upon quarterly profits instead of long term growth. Fixing these two areas will return the behavior of corporations to a much more benign level, because they would once again be subsumed by the market, requiring them to be much more responsive to the consumer without needing government oversight agencies.



we could also start by not adding things like health care costs to the GDP to get a true picture of how healthy the economy is...
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RhythmStar

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2004, 06:14:40 pm »

Mike, my mistrust in groups is exactly why I fear corporations almost as much as government, and why I keep pushing for decentralization everywhere we can cause it.

This is entirely appropriate. Distrust of corporations is widespread among us here, so you aren't alone. The problem is that the behaviors which spawned that mistrust were not enabled by the corporations, they were enabled by government.

Firstly, government in the late 19th century started giving very excessive powers to corporations. Secondly, the whole tax structure is arranged to put excessive emphasis upon quarterly profits instead of long term growth. Fixing these two areas will return the behavior of corporations to a much more benign level, because they would once again be subsumed by the market, requiring them to be much more responsive to the consumer without needing government oversight agencies.



Two challenges:

1) Harnassing just anti-corporate sentiment for libertarian purposes

2) Causing people to see that using socialist remedies to corporate misbehavior only increases the grip of BOTH government and corporate collectives over the individual -- first, the government coercion usually restricts individuals as much or more than it restricts the corporate targets, and secondly, the corporates evolve effective workarounds that are often worse than the original issues.

RS
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2004, 10:03:31 pm »

Mike, as previously stated, I am not a student of economics, but if this quarterly profits v. long term growth tax structure of which you speak will help the MARKET (which, Michael, is probably the word I should have used all along instead of "public" -- there's that semantics thing again!) to subordinate the power of the corporations, then I am in favor of it!

RhythmStar, you are still a mad genius!  Hey, I really think you're on to something with this anti-corporate sentiment thing.  Especially with people my age, or maybe a few years younger.  Kids in college are already being taught to hate the government, albeit for the wrong reasons (the government doesn't do ENOUGH, believe it or not).  So to them the FSP just sounds like another bunch of conspiracy theorists yammering on about the damn grassy knoll.  Not that that's accurate, but you've got to understand that we're talking about college kids, and college kids are, in the aggregate, dumb.
But CORPORATIONS!  Now that's a different thing.  Look at those anti-tobacco ads.  Truth.org or something like that puts those out.  Those have got to be having an effect.  What was the demographic of the people who participated in the WTO protests in Seattle?  What's the demographic of the people who purchase the book NO LOGO, by Naomi Klein?  You go to amazon.com and punch in the name of the book and it tells you people who bought this book also bought ______.  I mean this stuff can be found out.  Anyway, those are the people I think need to be targeted.  And I don't know for sure, but I think there could be a lot of potential freestaters on college campuses.  I know, college campuses are hotbeds of liberalism, but for every 50 or 100 liberals there's a conservative just dying to be validated.  Let's give him that validation.
And as long as we're straying from the thread, has anyone in the Boston area ever heard of a radio talkshow host named Jay Severin?  Dude, I'd be shocked if that guy's audience isn't populated with dozens -- if not thousands -- of freestaters waiting to happen.  Imagine, right in Boston!  You'd think people so close to the free state would know what's going on, but I'm willing to wager it's almost unheard of.  The only reason I know is because of an archived column I read on the backwoodshome.com website by Claire Wolfe.  I'm really glad I did, but I think the FSP has gotten all the members it's likely to get from that referral.  I think it would be money well spent to run one week's worth of ads on his show, or a Sean Hannity show.  Look, whether you agree or disagree with the individual show here is not relevant.  The thing is it gives the FSP exposure to millions of the right kind of people.  I'll say right here on the forum that I'd put up a hundred bucks to help finance a series of ads on the Jay Severin Extreme Games show in Boston.
Oh, better yet!  Someone with a pleasant image and a little charisma needs to call in to a show like that...hey, that's what I'm going to do!  I'm going to try and call the radio show and get a plug!  C'mon, gang, whaddaya think?
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2004, 12:03:29 pm »

Sure, why not? We all do what we can to generate publicity. I've done several interviews, written several essays that were published, letters to the editor as well. I'm going to be interviewed this evening in an online chat at the Immortality Institute about the FSP.

Individual initiative is about how it has been from the start. The only advice I'd give you is to read the FSP website in depth first, know the official policies, so that you can readily separate your personal opinions from the group stance.

Secondly, prepare yourself for trap questions. In our case, antagonistic reporters like two things to get us on: prostitution and drugs. Since we oppose prosecution of victimless crimes, the press likes to hype that up in order to discredit us.

To respond, cite what popular support there is for medical marijuana, for instance, especially if you have numbers for the listener/viewer area, and how the US now has the largest prison population in the world, many of whome are there on simple pot posession charges, wasting taxpayer money.

If they bring up the whole "drugs support terrorism" garbage go after the reporters candidates: if the reporter is conservative, ask if George Bush was thinking of how he was supporting terrorism when he was doing coke, or if its a liberal journalist, how Al Gore was thinking about it when he was stoning out at Harvard.

Close this issue out by empasizing that this is not a core issue with most members.

Same with prostitution. Say how its not a core issue, but that we feel that women should be entitled to police protection no matter what their profession is, and that making prostitution illegal gets in the way of that. Hooking is only exploiting women when it is illegal.
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BillG

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2004, 12:58:46 pm »

Mike, as previously stated, I am not a student of economics, but if this quarterly profits v. long term growth tax structure of which you speak will help the MARKET (which, Michael, is probably the word I should have used all along instead of "public" -- there's that semantics thing again!) to subordinate the power of the corporations, then I am in favor of it!

RhythmStar, you are still a mad genius!  Hey, I really think you're on to something with this anti-corporate sentiment thing.  Especially with people my age, or maybe a few years younger.  Kids in college are already being taught to hate the government, albeit for the wrong reasons (the government doesn't do ENOUGH, believe it or not).  So to them the FSP just sounds like another bunch of conspiracy theorists yammering on about the damn grassy knoll.  Not that that's accurate, but you've got to understand that we're talking about college kids, and college kids are, in the aggregate, dumb.
But CORPORATIONS!  Now that's a different thing.  Look at those anti-tobacco ads.  Truth.org or something like that puts those out.  Those have got to be having an effect.  What was the demographic of the people who participated in the WTO protests in Seattle?  What's the demographic of the people who purchase the book NO LOGO, by Naomi Klein?  You go to amazon.com and punch in the name of the book and it tells you people who bought this book also bought ______.  I mean this stuff can be found out.  Anyway, those are the people I think need to be targeted.  And I don't know for sure, but I think there could be a lot of potential freestaters on college campuses.  I know, college campuses are hotbeds of liberalism, but for every 50 or 100 liberals there's a conservative just dying to be validated.  Let's give him that validation.
And as long as we're straying from the thread, has anyone in the Boston area ever heard of a radio talkshow host named Jay Severin?  Dude, I'd be shocked if that guy's audience isn't populated with dozens -- if not thousands -- of freestaters waiting to happen.  Imagine, right in Boston!  You'd think people so close to the free state would know what's going on, but I'm willing to wager it's almost unheard of.  The only reason I know is because of an archived column I read on the backwoodshome.com website by Claire Wolfe.  I'm really glad I did, but I think the FSP has gotten all the members it's likely to get from that referral.  I think it would be money well spent to run one week's worth of ads on his show, or a Sean Hannity show.  Look, whether you agree or disagree with the individual show here is not relevant.  The thing is it gives the FSP exposure to millions of the right kind of people.  I'll say right here on the forum that I'd put up a hundred bucks to help finance a series of ads on the Jay Severin Extreme Games show in Boston.
Oh, better yet!  Someone with a pleasant image and a little charisma needs to call in to a show like that...hey, that's what I'm going to do!  I'm going to try and call the radio show and get a plug!  C'mon, gang, whaddaya think?

I listen every night coming home from Boston and have been on air 3 times...never about the FSP...probably to the relief of many on this forum!
« Last Edit: February 08, 2004, 12:59:57 pm by BillG (not Gates) »
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LeopardPM

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2004, 01:01:11 pm »

re: the whole drugs support terrorism thing

if you can figure out a way to 'sound bite' it, you can explain how legalizing drugs is the ONLY way to stem the flow of drug money for terrorism.  I have a paper on it written by a military strategist... its pretty good - need to make it easy for ordinairy folk ta understand tho... it involves a bit of economics, which means most peoples eyes glaze over...
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