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Author Topic: Mexico City  (Read 19275 times)

SethA

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2004, 11:27:59 pm »

Kelton, I couldn't agree more. You did a nice job of summarizing a lot of complex problems and how we got to the mess we have today.
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2004, 11:28:04 pm »

"If people want choices, then they will make them."
Mike, the beauty of your argument is its simplicity.  That is such basic common sense that it cannot be disputed.

I just finished reading an article called "The Moral Case For Free Trade," by Laurence M. Vance, thanks to a link posted by Tracy Saboe.  It was compelling.

I can sense intuitively that free trade, true free trade, unfettered by government interventionism short of protection from force or fraud, is the moral right.

So why do I find myself agreeing with Naomi Klein (quoted in my previous post) that mega-scale corporations are the enemy of free trade?
Why do so many of my peers -- my friends -- have their lifestyles dictated to them by a corporation?  Not just as consumers but as employees.  They are told how to dress and they do it, they are told what to say and they say it...I get the icky-poo willies just thinking about it.

I think that a free, well-managed economy is one of the greatest benefits of our society.  Yet my nightmares are inhabited by corporate giants like Wal-Mart, Disney, Nike, etc.  I think, in a way that is proving very difficult for me to articulate, that corporate giants are the enemy of independence.  There is something about them that feels a lot more like fascism than free enterprise.

I have one other comment to address to you specifically, Mike.  I still stand by the garden analogy I made a few days ago, but I have learned something very important, thanks in large part to our debate.  I still think it is more accurate to compare the free market economy to a rich garden which must be closely regulated and cared for at every phase; but I now recognize that the federal government is a lousy gardener.
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LeopardPM

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2004, 03:43:07 am »

this actually all comes back to how you look at a human being; are they 'stupid', 'immoral', 'evil', 'good', etc...

If we were to actually have a truely free market with the only role of government being to protect humans against force/fraud AND if then SuperPepsiCO did come into existence gobbling up every other soda manufacturer out there - then we MUST accept the reality that this is indeed how us humans want things to be...  I couldn't care less if I only had one choice in soft drink (unless it were lime soda or root beer) - I have other things which are larger priorities to me, like, the quality of my beef.  So I would choose to let the drink manufacturers combine BUT I would decidely fight with my wallet against any lessening of quality in my meat choices.  Other folks have different priorities... the conglomeration of all these priorities is what makes up the face of the free market.  make no mistake: though it appears to respond somewhat like a democracy, it if MUCH more able to offer multiple solutions even to minority groups whereas a democracy obliterates the minority voices with total 'oneness'... speaking of borgism!  Down with democracy, don't let it assimilate you!  Free Market for all!

michael
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nothing to say...

BillG

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2004, 05:46:39 am »

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I can agree with that, on a certain level, though I cannot stand the thought of forcefully downsizing corporations simply because they were too big and 'scary' or the foolish work of the "trust-busters" and their futile efforts at regulating monopolies and the like. 

It should be really easy to lead and sustain a good/meaningful/healthy life through the accumulation of endless "social" capital and limited material capital via the surplus afforded us all by others renting more than their equal share of the commonwealth...

It should be really hard to monopolize and thus accumulate and retain material wealth via government granted special priviledge...

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Instead, I recognize the need to end the special privileges given to giant corporations that give them special status as individuals under the law and tax-payer funded corporate welfare programs all by that most giant of all monopoly corporations,  the U.S. Federal Government [Inc.] and its fiduciary subsidiaries and corporate affiliates like the Federal Reserve.

well done but then you go on to just bash government without equally bashing corporations...

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In short, communities are broken because individuals and families are not allowed to be the central unit of society.  Decisions are made outside the realm of where they should be made, at the individual level among freemen

I like the Quaker term "standing alone together" because it portrays two strong human yearnings....freedom and equality - in perfect balance equals fraternity!
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2004, 10:38:52 am »

Michael, I think you are failing to come to grips with the scale on which companies are able to manipulate both the market and the supply chain.
The Egg Syndicate post was not a worst-case scenario by an incorrigible doomsayer; it was a composite description of the type of predation that takes place in our towns and cities all the time.
Wal-Mart and other powerful consumer-goods giants practice censorship.  The fact that it is corporate censorship instead of government censorship does not make it any more palatable to me.  And because of the tremendous power of these businesses, they wield a significant degree of influence over what consumer goods are produced in the first place.  This is the natural result of market forces under one controlling influence.
Some Hollywood studios will no longer make nc-17 films because they know that video rental giant Blockbuster will not rent them to the public.  So why forgo 25 per cent of a product's earning potential before it is even created?
This phenomenon is called the economy of scale.  Like film, television or software, retail has become an industry in which you must be huge to stay in the game.  The strange thing is that more products are sold, yet less choice exists.
This is not a philosophy or a prediction of mine.  It is a reality, and you are not recognizing it.
I'm still here saying that freedom is a very difficult thing to keep -- corporate interests not only can but demonstrably do take it away, just as does government.
To say you are going to speak with your wallet against corporations is like saying you are going to speak with your vote against government.  In both cases, there is just a lack of good choices.  You make a very cogent point that democracy obliterates the minority agenda, while private enterprise caters to it.  But that ideal is going away, Michael.
If left unmolested, if used as intended, our government would be a beautiful thing that would promulgate prosperity, respect, privacy and freedom.  The same can be said of the free enterprise system.  Both of these beautiful systems have been corrupted and distorted almost to the point of unrecognizability.  But almost all of the people whose posts I've read on the FSP seem to think that 100% of the blame belongs on the government for corrupting free enterprise and corrupting government.  But free enterprise has done lots to corrupt government, as well.  And to corrupt itself.
It's not complicated in my mind; I don't know why it's so hard for me to get my point across.  In my mind there are three things on the path of freedom which can be either very good or very bad.  On the left is government; on the right is commerce; above is religion.  Everyone seems to be in agreement that government and religion are bad, but no one seems to be able to allow for the possibility that commerce can be just as bad.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 10:41:35 am by penguinsscareme »
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BillG

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2004, 11:03:41 am »

There are a few of us here who do agree with you...

RhythmStar is a very eloquent and passionate advocate of many of the same positions re: corporations and I would put myself in the same camp.

I get myself in trouble here because I advocate for a "third way" beyond left vs. right, government vs. free market, freedom vs. equality...etc.

When I am routinely attacked by libertarians as a socialist and similiarly attacked by socialists as a libertarian I know I am doing something right...

check out this prominent libertarian's website which attempts to address this issue:

http://holisticpolitics.org/

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penguinsscareme

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2004, 11:26:50 am »

Thank you, BillG(not Gates), for sanity.  I briefly checked out the web link you supplied; the site design is, um, unique, I guess I didn't know websites like these had been around since 1977.  But web design aside, the content is refreshing and I will be going back to see more.  And I'll be playing my Allman Brothers cd when I do.
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2004, 11:31:56 am »

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Wal-Mart and other powerful consumer-goods giants practice censorship. The fact that it is corporate censorship instead of government censorship does not make it any more palatable to me.

Private organization has the right to censor within its internal affairs.
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And because of the tremendous power of these businesses, they wield a significant degree of influence over what consumer goods are produced in the first place. This is the natural result of market forces under one controlling influence.

That is almost correct, except we see government influence at the first place.


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Some Hollywood studios will no longer make nc-17 films because they know that video rental giant Blockbuster will not rent them to the public. So why forgo 25 per cent of a product's earning potential before it is even created?
This phenomenon is called the economy of scale.

This phenomenon is called central (government) control of the media.


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Like film, television or software, retail has become an industry in which you must be huge to stay in the game. The strange thing is that more products are sold, yet less choice exists.

Everything according to central planing. Of course only big guys are convenient for government to control.


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This is not a philosophy or a prediction of mine. It is a reality, and you are not recognizing it.

Of course everybody recognize this. Cooperation of big companies in fusion with the government is recognized and it is called Cartel (i.e. Federal Reserve System)
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I'm still here saying that freedom is a very difficult thing to keep -- corporate interests not only can but demonstrably do take it away, just as does government.
These do this in mutual cooperation. Freedom is very difficult thing to keep since it requires continuous vigilance. Unfortunately people are apathetic, not vigilant and chose free lunch over freedom.


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To say you are going to speak with your wallet against corporations is like saying you are going to speak with your vote against government. In both cases, there is just a lack of good choices.

Again, big corporation – governments fusion. Ad yes, we have choices.
 
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You make a very cogent point that democracy obliterates the minority agenda, while private enterprise caters to it. But that ideal is going away, Michael.

just like all the liberties since the beginning.


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If left unmolested, if used as intended, our government would be a beautiful thing that would promulgate prosperity, respect, privacy and freedom. The same can be said of the free enterprise system. Both of these beautiful systems have been corrupted and distorted almost to the point of unrecognizability.

Agree. But it is unpossible for government not to get corrupted if unchecked. At the same time free market has automatic controls build in as natural laws (just like gravity or electromagnetism are build in physical world)

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But almost all of the people whose posts I've read on the FSP seem to think that 100% of the blame belongs on the government for corrupting free enterprise and corrupting government.
That is correct.
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But free enterprise has done lots to corrupt government, as well. And to corrupt itself.
If selling and buying is legislated, the first thing bought will always be legislators.

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It's not complicated in my mind; I don't know why it's so hard for me to get my point across.
We all see your point, just respectfully do not agree with it
 
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In my mind there are three things on the path of freedom which can be either very good or very bad. On the left is government; on the right is commerce; above is religion. Everyone seems to be in agreement that government and religion are bad, but no one seems to be able to allow for the possibility that commerce can be just as bad.


This correctly presents what most of us think, except there is not the matter of allowing possibility that commerce is bad. We are coming to conclusion the commerce is good.

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Penfist

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2004, 11:46:27 am »

The site doesn't appear to have been updated since July 4, 2003. What's up with that?

Thank you, BillG(not Gates), for sanity.  I briefly checked out the web link you supplied; the site design is, um, unique, I guess I didn't know websites like these had been around since 1977.  But web design aside, the content is refreshing and I will be going back to see more.  And I'll be playing my Allman Brothers cd when I do.
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I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
--Thomas Jefferson

BillG

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2004, 11:48:18 am »

Thank you, BillG(not Gates), for sanity.  I briefly checked out the web link you supplied; the site design is, um, unique, I guess I didn't know websites like these had been around since 1977.  But web design aside, the content is refreshing and I will be going back to see more.  And I'll be playing my Allman Brothers cd when I do.

Carl kind of looks like Mick Jagger don't you think?

regarding color scheme...

"A Few Notes on the Format
In the buttons to the left there are different fonts and colors for different "chapters". The rainbow colored buttons denote chapters on holistic politics in general. Multiple colors symbolize looking at multiple values at the same time. The red buttons are about increasing equality (while improving freedom); red implies connection with the hardcore socialist movements. Green buttons are for chapters on cleaning up the environment and preserving nature (while actually increasing freedom). The blue buttons are on reconciling a free society with traditional notions of morality, as well as Biblical justifications for animal rights and a better welfare system. Grayish buttons indicate chapters that still need to be written.

Some early reviewers of this site have suggested that the loud color schemes and groovy fonts detract from the seriousness of the material. There are important reasons for the graphical nature of my presentation, gaudy though it may be. We live in an information saturated society; fast communication is needed. Pictures can be a much faster form of communication for certain ideas. Further, I am trying to convey thinking about multiple concerns at the same time; using multiple mental channels is thus appropriate. Perhaps most importantly, in order to address multiple concerns, I have to at times sound like people you do not like; therefore, it is critical to have reminders of the intent I am driving at even when the route is unfamiliar.

And finally, I just happen to like the artwork of the hippie era. Humor me."
« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 11:49:48 am by BillG (not Gates) »
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LeopardPM

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2004, 11:53:28 am »

I think I do understand your position, Penguin.  All I know basically breaks down to this:

There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong or corrupt between two people making a voluntary trade - both benefit.  This is the micro level but holds true through the macro as well.

The problem we are having (in this thread) is that we all are basing our 'opinions' on faith rather than 'fact'.  It is my 'faith' in the above statement that leads me to the conclusions I write.  The point being that we have very little data to draw upon: the US market is not a true free market and we can rarely see evidence of a true free market at work (defined as being without ANY government influence).  I therefore advocate 'test' laboratories: let a state or various communities be able to operate as a true free market where all government intervention is withheld.  Then compare these experiments to their 'managed economy' counter-parts.  Only then will we be able to make good decisions in this regard, until then, we are making extreme leaps of faith.

It is my hope that the Free State might at least provide a fertile ground for a 'freer' market and, I also have hopes on some developing 3rd world nations too.

Lets do some real-world testing!  I am not afraid of competing against any managed economy!

michael
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Karl

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2004, 12:12:22 pm »

It should be really easy to lead and sustain a good/meaningful/healthy life through the accumulation of endless "social" capital and limited material capital via the surplus afforded us all by others renting more than their equal share of the commonwealth...

It should be really hard to monopolize and thus accumulate and retain material wealth via government granted special priviledge...

Except, Bill, you define government protection of personal property to be one of those government granted special priviledges.  If you were at all principled in the matter, your definition would also classify free speech, freedom of worship, freedom of assembly, and the right to keep and bear arms as government granted special priviledges.

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well done but then you go on to just bash government without equally bashing corporations...

Naturally, because to do otherwise would be to treat the symptoms but not the disease.  As Kelton made clear, though you chose to ignore it and blow smoke in our faces, the government is the major reason corporations are permitted to misbehave.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 12:14:09 pm by Karl Beisel »
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2004, 12:31:25 pm »

Okay.
Tony, we agree that only through constant vigilance can we keep our freedom.  I'm preaching the gospel of decentralization.
Freedom and Power.  They might be synonymous.  They're definitely linked.  I think as much of that freedom and power as possible must be kept at the lowest possible level of control.  In political terms that means it must be from the municipal level, not the federal.  In private terms it means the individual, not the corporation.  The consolidation of great power anywhere is a dangerous thing.
You correctly show that the free market has automatic controls built in.  You know what, Tony?  So does the Constitution.  To think either is incorruptible because of internal controls is just naive.  There are always those forces at work which will find ways to get around those safety measures and corrupt the system.  Vigilance against government corruption must come from outside of government; vigilance against corruption of free trade must come from outside the free trade system.

Andrew
« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 12:38:43 pm by penguinsscareme »
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2004, 01:06:19 pm »

Michael, I am getting to like you.
I buy into your voluntary trade model, on both the micro and the macro scale.  But humans can ruin anything.  Free trade is no exception.  This is why I advocate oversight.  Please see my most recent post.
This is going to sound like a cliche, but I'm going to say it nonetheless:  people should run corporations.  I look around me and I see corporations running people.
Like government and religion, I think free trade should exist to serve the public.  And like government and religion, I think free trade can become a self-serving, self-perpetuating, bloated plague.  I think when free trade hollows out communities, when irreplaceable natural resources are ruined by industrial greed, then the public must act to save itself (NOT saying government must act to save the public).  I think we are at that point now.  Very simply, free trade is a product of human nature, and as such it is vulnerable to all the same vices as anything else we endeavor.  If we don't regulate the system from outside of itself then we invite our own downfall.  Imagine Phil's super ego decided Phil's id could regulate itself...nuff said.
You're all very fortunate that I'm here to set you straight on this complicated grownup stuff.  ;D

Kidding!  Just kidding -- jeez, you people are sensitive.

Andrew
« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 01:26:47 pm by penguinsscareme »
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BillG

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Re:Mexico City
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2004, 01:11:53 pm »

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Except, Bill, you define government protection of personal property to be one of those government granted special priviledges

depends on how you define "personal" property...fruits of your physical and mental labor only?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 01:40:14 pm by BillG (not Gates) »
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