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Author Topic: Asking for libertarian input..  (Read 19876 times)

Osborn F. Enready

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Asking for libertarian input..
« on: January 22, 2004, 11:09:55 am »

     Since finding this cause, I have taken the time to read through this site and find its cause honorable and just.  I have read through several messages in the forum though and I have noticed a few things that lead me to ask more questions that I would appreciate input on, especially from people who believe in this cause and have been working to further its progress.
     
      I am distraught over the fact that the only canidates who make the major ballot in this country (Democrat/Republican) are globalists.  In my opinion globalism is a failed theory, and a pipe dream to those that cannot face the facts of redistribution of wealth as it is currently happening (by design).  I as many others have long believed in a national media conspiracy to keep certain topics off the airways, and out of sight.  I think now as some of the curtains are being lifted, people (though few) that pay attention are starting to see some of the more grand designs that both Republican and Democrat representatives have had in store for us all along.  To me it seems as though as long as you are a globalist you have the party vote and the issues can be dealt with after that to decide who can carry the parties banner.  The last time I checked, this government was supposed to represent the people, so where is my non-globalist canidate?  If globalism was such an important issue wouldn't that have been the center of debate for the last couple of elections?  I would think so.  So, one of my questions is what tactics or ideas do you have to combat the globalist regime on the political front?  Do you feel this is important(anti-globalism)??

     Another question I would like to hear the libertarian side address is the question of free trade.  This is rather simplified, but for this discussion will suit to make my point.  Free trade is an idea based on goods being more mobile than manufacturers.  In this day and age, as we all know, manufaturers travel to where their profits are largest, not where they are needed most.  This in itself is the flaw in the design of free trade, because as I said earlier, the redistribution of wealth is obvious now as we watch our jobs leave the country and our imports swell to record breaking proportion.  Because of a lack of protectionism we are being manhandled in the world market and will soon learn the cold hard lesson of globalism.  So, my question is:  How do you defend the Free Market idea that you promote, and how do you think this redistribution of wealth will be rectified?

     To me, these are THE most important issues in our country, mainly because I feel if these wrongs are not corrected soon we won't have a country any longer to protect.  My feelings are generally libertarian, though certain things really concern me about libertarians ideals.
I believe in this cause if for nothing else because these people are ACTIVISTS, and are WILLING TO FIGHT to bring this country back to the people.  Do you have any thoughts on a national news channel promoting the truth about globalism??  The cost would be outrageous, but the results could be some of the best we have ever witnessed in this nation with people seeing the need to vote and take seriously the DUTY they have to this country.  I am a veteran of the Gulf War, and the thing that sickens me the most in this country is our lack of intrest or belief in our system.  OUR system is the way it is because WE THE PEOPLE have let ourselves become placated with luxuries and the grand delusion they call the AMERICAN DREAM.  My AMERICAN DREAM is a place where people take their duty to their country seriously and pay attention to the issues and vote to make a difference.  

     If you have taken the time to read this, please respond as I respect all input and viewpoints.  Knowledge is the result of lessons learned, logic the key to understanding.  Help me understand this cause, and I will help you understand the opposition you face.

 

                                                          Osborn F. Enready

atr

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2004, 12:18:53 pm »

   This in itself is the flaw in the design of free trade, because as I said earlier, the redistribution of wealth is obvious now as we watch our jobs leave the country and our imports swell to record breaking proportion.  Because of a lack of protectionism we are being manhandled in the world market and will soon learn the cold hard lesson of globalism.  So, my question is:  How do you defend the Free Market idea that you promote, and how do you think this redistribution of wealth will be rectified?

Protectionism imposes major costs on consumers, who subsidize the workers in the protected industry. See, e.g. http://www.mackinac.org/article.asp?ID=4107 or http://www.econ.iastate.edu/classes/econ355/choi/prot.htm

Here's a hypothetical:

An American company (ACC) makes big unreliable and inefficient cars that cost $20,000 on average.
A Japanese company (JCC) makes smaller cars that are twice as efficient and reliable, and cost $15,000.
If there are no tariffs, ACC will have to improve its product in order to compete. American consumers will benefit from the competition, and from the availability of this superior product.
But, suppose that the government imposes a 50% tariff on imported cars in order to protect jobs at ACC. Cars made by JCC now cost $22500 instead of $15000. ACC has less incentive to make a better product. American consumers have shelled out gobs of money for the tariffs. Many more Americans end up with the ACC car, which creates more pollution, inflates gasoline consumption and the price of gasoline, lost productivity from car malfunction, etc.

I for one am thankful for the freedom to purchase foreign goods.


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Karl

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2004, 01:33:41 pm »

    Since finding this cause, I have taken the time to read through this site and find its cause honorable and just.  I have read through several messages in the forum though and I have noticed a few things that lead me to ask more questions that I would appreciate input on, especially from people who believe in this cause and have been working to further its progress.

Welcome, I hope that we can answer some of your questions. :)

Quote
   
      I am distraught over the fact that the only canidates who make the major ballot in this country (Democrat/Republican) are globalists.  In my opinion globalism is a failed theory, and a pipe dream to those that cannot face the facts of redistribution of wealth as it is currently happening (by design).

The term "globalism" usually describes several policies.  In general, libertarians advocate free and unrestricted global trade, but oppose policies of involving international aid, military adventurism, and "world government" bureaucracies like the UN, IMF and WTO.


Quote
Another question I would like to hear the libertarian side address is the question of free trade.  This is rather simplified, but for this discussion will suit to make my point.  Free trade is an idea based on goods being more mobile than manufacturers.  In this day and age, as we all know, manufaturers travel to where their profits are largest, not where they are needed most.  This in itself is the flaw in the design of free trade, because as I said earlier, the redistribution of wealth is obvious now as we watch our jobs leave the country and our imports swell to record breaking proportion.  Because of a lack of protectionism we are being manhandled in the world market and will soon learn the cold hard lesson of globalism.  So, my question is:  How do you defend the Free Market idea that you promote, and how do you think this redistribution of wealth will be rectified?

Actually, this is a myth; it is false.  It is true that traditional manufacturers and some other industries are moving overseas.  However, it is false that this is causing the movement of a finite amount of wealth overseas.  In fact, wealth has increased, not decreased in the United States, as products become more affordable and American's time is freed from doing more mundane tasks to starting new businesses and persuing new ideas.  Policies of protectionism would most certainly reverse that trend and make the US less prosperous.

Another illustration --

Imagine the customer in atr's example was the owner of a small carpet cleaning business.  He needs to buy 10 vans for his fleet.  With protectionism, he must buy 10 ACC-brand vans at $22,500 each, for a total of $225,000.  With free trade, he buys 10 JCC vans at $15,000, for a total of $150,000, a difference of $75,000, enough to provide good jobs for two employees.  Protectionism simply transfered the jobs from the carpet cleaning company to a manufacturing company.  Or perhaps that is the owner's profit without which he would have never bothered to start his business, leaving countless other businesses with dirty floors.

This is exactly what happened when Bush raised steel tarriffs last year.  American auto manutfacturers were hurt because higher costs for steel, as were dock workers and importers.

If you are concerned with the unjust redistribution of wealth, you should strongly oppose protectionist policies.
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bryanweatherly

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2004, 05:17:12 pm »

I think you are a little confused about the concepts of a free market and globalisation.  When you start takling about people's "needs"  and "fighting to give back to the people," you sound like a communist.  You said you have libertarian viewpoints, I didn't pick up on any in reading your post.
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atr

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2004, 05:51:19 pm »

I believe in this cause if for nothing else because these people are ACTIVISTS, and are WILLING TO FIGHT to bring this country back to the people.

I believe it would be more accurate to say that FSP members are willing to fight to bring liberty back to the people.

In a free society, we will not all have a lot of money, and we won't be guaranteed a job, home, or healthcare. But we will all be rich, in the sense that freedom is the greatest wealth someone can have.
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RhythmStar

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2004, 09:37:56 pm »

>>wealth redistribution

FWIW, what you are calling "wealth redistribution" others would call "competition".  It takes a 3rd party to redistribute wealth, but buyers and sellers alone can (and should) constitute a market.

RS
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2004, 07:42:48 am »

Libertarians are pro-globalism with regards to free trade. We are not for one-world-government (unless all the other countries choose to accept the US Constitution). We are for free trade because it lets the market determine the best use of resources, not governments, not special interest groups.

People who are getting displaced by the loss of the industrial base need to get new high tech skills. Whining about it isn't going to get you anywhere.
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LeRuineur6

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2004, 08:06:40 am »

Dear Osborn F. Enready,

I see you've already been called a communist.  Do not take it personally.  You sound almost entirely libertarian as it is and you're exactly what we need, as long as you're an activist too!

Regarding globalization, I oppose political globalization, even if all countries accept the US Constitution.  If more countries accepted the US Constitution and became a part of our country, they would highly dilute our local political power and that is not acceptable.

However, I strongly support economic globalization.  Our artificially higher prices in America are caused by the government.  With minimal federal, state, AND local government, we will be able to significantly lower our taxes, prices, provide cheaper labor, and businesses will move back in!

Also, a tariff on steel imports, for example, makes anything in our country derived from steel more expensive.  If we can import cheaper steel from another country, then we can create cheaper cars.  Also, if we had a minimal government, steel wouldn't BE cheaper in other countries!  :)

"No nation is ever ruined by free trade."
-Benjamin Franklin
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Morpheus

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2004, 08:12:33 am »

Quote
I think you are a little confused about the concepts of a free market and globalisation.  When you start takling about people's "needs"  and "fighting to give back to the people," you sound like a communist.

Interestingly enough, while this is what one would hear coming out of Nader's mouth.. it is also what one would hear coming out of *Buchanan's* mouth.
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LeopardPM

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2004, 10:08:33 pm »

Mr. Osborn,
Welcome, again!

You will find that a majority of libertarians subscribe to mostly Austrian Economics www.mises.org (there is a high degree of overlap).  Mainly, that it is NO BUSINESS of government to interceed in a voluntary transaction between ANY two people - it matters not if those two people live in the same country or are of a certain race, gender, or whatever.  This is the essence of Free Trade and it has already been proven, repeatedly, to be the most effective way to distribute goods and services.  fact is, protectionism hurts a country to a far greater degree than it supposedly helps (I am more than willing to discuss this issue with you under another thread in the General Libertarian Heading or through emails).  At its foundation, protectionism is purely forceful redistribution of wealth - from the entire country to the indistry being given 'protection' - since it is done with the awesome power of government, it is also coercive.  All things un-libertarian.

generally, those that subscribe to protectionist policy have been influenced by the likes of Pat Buchannan<sp> and such.  The problem is that economics is a two-sided coin, there is the immediate, visible 'effect - then the longer term, invisible effect.  Opportunity Cost is an example of an 'invisible' effect: The cost of an item is NOT the amount of money you paid for it, it is also what ELSE you could have done with the money instead.  It is very emotional for a media source to show a 1,000 workers being laid off because of Free Trade, it is simply impossible to show the 'other side of the coin': the fact that everyone (including the workers) now pay X% less for the particuliar product that said industry was unable to compete in.

There are some basic economic facts that no government can prevent from occuring:
(1) protectionism or not, as people have increased ease of communication and mobility, all local economies will begin to merge into one basic one, with labor and goods priced with respect to regional differences which create 'Comparative Advantages'.
(2) the more people active in an economy, the more benefit for each of them.  This means that as the world's economies merge, the entire world's standard of living will rise as a whole.
(3) labor rates in the US are over-priced - these will come down in the future, there is no alternative.  The only alternative is in the manner: the longer the government 'protects' its country's labor, the more 'violent' the adjustment period will be

said too much already,
michael
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2004, 10:34:12 pm »

>>wealth redistribution

FWIW, what you are calling "wealth redistribution" others would call "competition".  It takes a 3rd party to redistribute wealth, but buyers and sellers alone can (and should) constitute a market.

RS

I think she/he's referring to the UN, the WTO, NATO, Export-import bank, and other international and domestic agencies that use taxpayers money to redistribute wealth.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

TRacy
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2004, 10:36:09 pm »

I believe in this cause if for nothing else because these people are ACTIVISTS, and are WILLING TO FIGHT to bring this country back to the people.

I believe it would be more accurate to say that FSP members are willing to fight to bring liberty back to the people.

In a free society, we will not all have a lot of money, and we won't be guaranteed a job, home, or healthcare. But we will all be rich, in the sense that freedom is the greatest wealth someone can have.

We'll also all be wealthier in the sence that our money is worth more then it would be otherwise because the free market encourages competition, lower prices, and better quality of goods and services.

Tracy
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We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

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Tracy Saboe

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2004, 10:38:29 pm »

Hyper-regulation is actually the main reason most jobs are moving away.

They just can't afford the cost of compliance.

Tracy

(P.S. sorry for the multiple posts.)

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We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

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Conway Supports Abortion
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RhythmStar

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2004, 02:04:41 pm »

Hyper-regulation is actually the main reason most jobs are moving away.

They just can't afford the cost of compliance.

Tracy

(P.S. sorry for the multiple posts.)



There was a fellow, name Roger Simmermaker,  on CNN this morning who has a site on How To Buy American.  He made the point that for the government to be able to do what the electorate has in effect demanded that it do (everything from Defense and Education to Welfare), that the citizenry must buy the products that put the money into the hands of those US companies and individuals who pay the most taxes.   I had the thought in that moment that there was a certain irony in the consideration that the wealthy, who pay the most in taxes, are being inexorably squeezed for more taxes in the future, as the un-wealthy, who buy the most cheap, imported products, starve their own benefactors of revenue.

Perhaps the best thing is to own an export business in Hong Kong, Taiwan or Singapore, but to live on the open seas.  :)

RS
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LeopardPM

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2004, 03:56:03 pm »

I saw the tail end of that show too, Rhythm - very interesting how he avoided the question put forth to him re "Wouldn't that make our companies lazy and/or encourage inefficient production?"

michael
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