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Author Topic: Asking for libertarian input..  (Read 19645 times)

RhythmStar

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2004, 07:52:13 am »

Who's doing the pumping here, Jason?  When I need to buy something, I'm gonna buy it, one way or another.  I am not engaging in "Keynesian/mercantilist fallacies", I am putting my money where it will do ME the most good.   The help to the local company that you seem so willing to dismiss is something that I include in my value equation, that's all.  Or, is that too POLITICALLY INCORRECT?  Well, I've been an unconventionalist all my 49 years, no sense in stopping now. :)

Well, if it does you good, that's your call, obviously.  I just wanted to examine the reasoning behind the "buy American" slogan.  

To tell you the truth, I really hadn't thought much about it until challenged here.  Like any good musician, I was just following my own 'feel good' flow.  :)

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If the goal is to promote the American economy, the best way to do that is to buy what serves your needs and wants best.  The country of origin, ipso facto, shouldn't matter.

I think I may not be a good idealogue, since I can't ever seem to believe anything more than 80% of the time (if that much).  We humans are smart, but not that smart.   Economics is on the same footing as stock market prediction, as far as I can see, and shiftier sands are hard to find.  Wait long enough, and almost any set of seemingly-relevant equations you care to devise will appear to predict the future, or at least the past.

So, what do I do without the crystal-clear light of mathematical certainty to guide me?  I do what seems like it makes the most sense to do at the time, and I don't spend all day trying to figure it out, either.  My bet is that 99% of other folks spend less time at it than I do, particularly when it comes to purchases -- they buy what they're used to buying, or they buy what is on sale, but in all cases they buy off the shelf from the most convenient location (location, location, location).   With the continued penetration of the Internet into the mainstream, this is changing, but still, most retail sales are in-person.  Comparison shopping in-person is practical in Manhattan, but a fool's errand just about anywhere else in the US -- the fuel to get to the next mall makes up the difference, assuming there is one.

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That is not entirely true.  Many times, the US goods will be superior in many respects, such as service and warranty, but will be less effectively marketed, since they are produced by a family-owned business instead of a multi-national corporation.  I would rather pay the family for better service and equal goods, even if I have to look harder seek them out, than to blithely buy off the global corporate rack with the rest of the herd folk.  Call me a loner... :)

Again, that's another issue.  If the quality is different, there's room for judgement.  I like to eat at local New Haven restaurants rather than national chain restaurants - in general, the local restaurants have much more character and are higher quality.  (And sometimes cheaper too.)

There you go again, buying from less efficient producers. ;)

Don't worry, I patronize my over-priced Newport Beach restauranteurs as well.  Then again, so do the free-spending Japanese tourists who pay $1500 a week for a summer rental in a neighborhood where I pay $1250 a month year round.  LOL

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We have a GROWING multi-hundred billion dollar trade deficit in this country.  I think we can go back a pretty far bit in the other direction before even get close to any sort of equilibrium.   If equilibrium were what we were looking at, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Actually, the trade deficit is starting to shrink due to the dollar's weakness... But the main reason the trade deficit has persisted has been a long-term appreciating dollar.  If we could get developing countries to stabilize their monetary systems, the trade deficit would disappear...  Gotta use the IMF for that. ;)  (Only partially kidding.  I want to abolish the IMF, but use moral suasion to get China to remove exchange controls.)

Well, I always believe in conceeding points when they are taken.  Here, the latest figures (which I had not read) support your statement:

http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html

I am not convinced that monetary policy alone can cause the trade deficit to disappear, but any reduction has got to be a good thing.  

RS
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2004, 09:22:45 am »

    I appreciate all the input to my original post question. I also appreciate the info from everyone including the "discussion" that seems to have spawned from this thread.  Still trying to absorb some more information on Libertarian trade theories.  In one thread someone referred to trading produce with someone in another country.  In your ideal minimal government how would something like this be handled as far as inspection for bugs/germs before leaving or entering the country?  Would this be handled by the government?  How big of a hand would government have in the "ideal" Libertarian Government?  I like to think that as much as I am for minimalist government there also has to be certain areas of government in place to inspect and monitor trade goods for quality and germ/pest protection.

In a more libertarian world, corporations would not be so easily protected against the negligence of their officers and employees, and environmentalists would be much more free to launch individual and class action lawsuits for environmental damage. You don't need an EPA to keep an eye out for non-native bugs, weeds, pollution, or any of that stuff when individuals are held responsible in a libertarian system for their own actions.

Government more often protects people from being self responsible.

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     Mike Lorrey seems to like wearing the nametag of informed Libertarian spokesperson, so I will address this question to him:  Mike, if I wanted to know more about Libertarians ideal government, where could I find this info?  Do you know of any good sources that deal with my question of ideal government size and scope specificly?


Truly ideal? Read David Friedman's book "The Machinery of Freedom"
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2004, 04:03:58 pm »

    I appreciate all the input to my original post question. I also appreciate the info from everyone including the "discussion" that seems to have spawned from this thread.  Still trying to absorb some more information on Libertarian trade theories.  In one thread someone referred to trading produce with someone in another country.  In your ideal minimal government how would something like this be handled as far as inspection for bugs/germs before leaving or entering the country?  Would this be handled by the government?  How big of a hand would government have in the "ideal" Libertarian Government?  I like to think that as much as I am for minimalist government there also has to be certain areas of government in place to inspect and monitor trade goods for quality and germ/pest protection.

     Mike Lorrey seems to like wearing the nametag of informed Libertarian spokesperson, so I will address this question to him:  Mike, if I wanted to know more about Libertarians ideal government, where could I find this info?  Do you know of any good sources that deal with my question of ideal government size and scope specificly?

    Once again, Leopard, Bill G, Tracy, Mike, michael, all the info and debate greatly appreciated.


                                                          Osborn F. Enready


The "ideal" libertarian government would be a non-existant government.

Tracy
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RhythmStar

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2004, 04:25:28 pm »

    I appreciate all the input to my original post question. I also appreciate the info from everyone including the "discussion" that seems to have spawned from this thread.  Still trying to absorb some more information on Libertarian trade theories.  In one thread someone referred to trading produce with someone in another country.  In your ideal minimal government how would something like this be handled as far as inspection for bugs/germs before leaving or entering the country?  Would this be handled by the government?  How big of a hand would government have in the "ideal" Libertarian Government?  I like to think that as much as I am for minimalist government there also has to be certain areas of government in place to inspect and monitor trade goods for quality and germ/pest protection.

     Mike Lorrey seems to like wearing the nametag of informed Libertarian spokesperson, so I will address this question to him:  Mike, if I wanted to know more about Libertarians ideal government, where could I find this info?  Do you know of any good sources that deal with my question of ideal government size and scope specificly?

    Once again, Leopard, Bill G, Tracy, Mike, michael, all the info and debate greatly appreciated.


                                                          Osborn F. Enready


The "ideal" libertarian government would be a non-existant government.

Tracy

A government may only be as ideal as the individuals it governs.  It rarely gets that good, but it could never get any better. :)

RS
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SteveA

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2004, 07:58:54 pm »

Regarding "globalism":

Though I love America and want to see the best for all of us, there are legitimate arguements to the assertion that from space there are no national boundaries and as others have stated, arbitrarily restricting free trade doesn't have much of any positive benfits for anyone.

There is a legitimate danger to allowing too few people control over the lives of too many.  We should strive toward empowering individuals with control over their own life, not enforcing "global" (as stated by a few individuals) wishes upon them.  The danger lies in lack of choices for alternate forms of government and restricting the natural evolution of societies that currently takes place in independent communities all over the world.  Imagine the entire world ruled by a single leader - who would that leader be and what decisions would he/she make?  From history, the benevolence of rulers seems to be about a 50/50 shot in the dark.  I would hate to see the fate of all humanity lie at the whim of a single individual, or even a "semi-democratic" group of them.  Our lives are too valuable to be blindly placed at the mercy of anyone.  We need options and alternative methods of government to assure that the downfall of one doesn't doom everyone to the same fate.  "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" seems an appropriate expression.

The primary problem we have now in America is the involuntary drain of resources to areas outside the U.S. as well as many internal issues of efficiency.  Allowing free trade actually provides us with more of an incentive to improve our own economy and personally I feel that we can more than lead the way into the future once we regain the motivation and ideals needed to stop relying on others to lead the way.  The government will not be our savior in the world economy, nor in freedom.  If you want to be able to compete in a world marketplace, improve your productivity.  Trying to stop the future, leads to stagnation (though for some this might not be an undesirable life).  As an example, protectionist "saving a job" by declaring automation by a machine illegal or discouraging it by placing financial burdens on its use will only lead to automation in the rest of the world and lack of the ability for us to compete in outside our own borders.  If our economy is in the slumps and two parents must work to support a family of 4, don't point fingers outside the nation, but inside to where the problem lies - lack of incentives to improve our own lifestyles.  Being a victim and blaming others is easy, being a leader and showing what the future holds is a challenge that not everyone is able to bear.  Lightening the load on those who are trying to improve our future is IMO the first step needed in recovering a the prospects of a better tomorrow for everyone.

If those leaders come from outside the nation, so be it.  It might hurt the ego a bit, but if we aren't willing to lead the way, denying someone else the opportunity is purely spiteful and destructive to everyone.

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A government may only be as ideal as the individuals it governs.  It rarely gets that good, but it could never get any better.

RS

Now that's the honest truth.  This sentiment was expressed by the Founding Fathers as well.  You can't have good and fair government without good and fair people.

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The "ideal" libertarian government would be a non-existant government.

Tracy

I agree with this, though it's more of a matter of changing the view of government from the current third person perspective of a ruling elite, into a first person perspective of having control over our own lives.  There will always be forms of social contracts and sacrifices people make for the sake of society but recognizing these actions are made by people voluntarily for their own interests, instead of forcefully imposed with threats is the preferred form to provide equality and fairness for everyone.  We made a step toward abolishing involuntary slavery in the 1800s, but we shouldn't stop there.
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Osborn F. Enready

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #80 on: February 19, 2004, 01:32:52 am »

     I want to thank everyone for their input in this post.  Since I have learned about this movement, it has interested me, and now that I have taken the time to research it enough to fulfill my ideas of what it is and its potential could be, I have joined up, and look forward to furthering our goals as soon as I can move.  I appreciate the honest heart felt debate, and I applaud your initiative and desire to make a change in the way our government functions.  Good luck Porcs, and Im proud to now be in the ranks.  Thanks again..

                                                     Osborn F. Enready

LeopardPM

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #81 on: February 19, 2004, 01:45:11 am »

Yeah Osborn! and Welcome!

now we only need 14,853 to go...

one step at a time, i guess...

michael
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SteveA

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #82 on: February 19, 2004, 02:48:28 am »

Welcome aboard Mr. Enready :)

I'm happy to see another reinforcement.  We've got a lot of good people here, IMO.  Yes, we come in a lot of shades and colors of opinions on things though I'm surprised at times how closely in agreement many of the people here are on so many issues ... I think that says something about the validity of the thoughts behind the text.

Having another porcupine spreading the word brings us a bit closer to seeing what the FSP can do.  Have fun!
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"Fruitless, born a thousand times, lies barren.  Unguided inspiration, yields random motion, circumscribed in destination, going nowhere.  Guidance uninspired, always true in facing, stands immobile.  But fixed upon that destination firmly and with inspiration lofted; beget your dreams."

LeopardPM

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2004, 03:29:37 am »

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Again, that's another issue.  If the quality is different, there's room for judgement.  I like to eat at local New Haven restaurants rather than national chain restaurants - in general, the local restaurants have much more character and are higher quality.  (And sometimes cheaper too.)

There you go again, buying from less efficient producers. ;)

Don't worry, I patronize my over-priced Newport Beach restauranteurs as well.  Then again, so do the free-spending Japanese tourists who pay $1500 a week for a summer rental in a neighborhood where I pay $1250 a month year round.  LOL
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I am not convinced that monetary policy alone can cause the trade deficit to disappear, but any reduction has got to be a good thing.  

RS

Rhythm,
You misunderstand how the term 'efficient' is used in matters economic:  efficiency is not just 'most goods at smallest resource cost, but, rather, 'most DESIRED goods at smallest DESIRED resource cost' -
therefore, both Jason AND you are correct - Jason for buying from his desired restaurant for whatever reasons, and you for buying products made in the USA...

our problem is that, for MY own desires, you purchasing products based soley on being made here, is a cross-purpose... so my 'side' has been arguing from a biased point - our own desires!

I conceed the debate to you - buy all the american you want, it does not further my own goals and is actually of detrement to them, BUT, I will freely lay my soul at the markets mercy (even with you in it!)

michael
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RhythmStar

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2004, 11:51:56 am »

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Again, that's another issue.  If the quality is different, there's room for judgement.  I like to eat at local New Haven restaurants rather than national chain restaurants - in general, the local restaurants have much more character and are higher quality.  (And sometimes cheaper too.)

There you go again, buying from less efficient producers. ;)

Don't worry, I patronize my over-priced Newport Beach restauranteurs as well.  Then again, so do the free-spending Japanese tourists who pay $1500 a week for a summer rental in a neighborhood where I pay $1250 a month year round.  LOL
.....
I am not convinced that monetary policy alone can cause the trade deficit to disappear, but any reduction has got to be a good thing.  

RS

Rhythm,
You misunderstand how the term 'efficient' is used in matters economic:  efficiency is not just 'most goods at smallest resource cost, but, rather, 'most DESIRED goods at smallest DESIRED resource cost' -
therefore, both Jason AND you are correct - Jason for buying from his desired restaurant for whatever reasons, and you for buying products made in the USA...

our problem is that, for MY own desires, you purchasing products based soley on being made here, is a cross-purpose... so my 'side' has been arguing from a biased point - our own desires!

I conceed the debate to you - buy all the american you want, it does not further my own goals and is actually of detrement to them, BUT, I will freely lay my soul at the markets mercy (even with you in it!)

michael

Michael,

If most economists were as smart as you are, I'd have no one to argue with.  So, SHHHHHHHHH.....!!!   :D

RS
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LeopardPM

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2004, 06:13:19 pm »

Rhythm,
any smarts I have are directly related to the discussions I have with you and in following your logic in debates with others...

...in other words, I have a good teacher, my friend!

michael
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