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Author Topic: Asking for libertarian input..  (Read 19643 times)

RhythmStar

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2004, 04:22:09 am »

BTW, I have to object to this tripe.  What makes companies fat and lazy is ignorance, not customers willing to pay a price for qualities they value.  To me, the fact that a fellow American got to feed his family as a result of me buying a car is definitely worth something.  THAT, my friend, IS the free market at work, invisible hand and all!


When it comes to my clothing, I always try to implement a Buy Bangladeshi policy.  It's much more important to feed Bangladeshi families than to feed American ones.

Everyone has their own wallet and their own way of lightening it. (shrug)

When the US labor market is tight and my countrymen are well-paid and not out of work, then I also enjoy buying goods made by developing nations.  For me, charity begins at home.  It doesn't end there, but that's where it starts.

RS
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lloydbob1

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2004, 10:03:24 am »

Everyone has their own wallet and their own way of lightening it. (shrug)

When the US labor market is tight and my countrymen are well-paid and not out of work, then I also enjoy buying goods made by developing nations.  For me, charity begins at home.  It doesn't end there, but that's where it starts.

RS


If you buy overpriced products from companies with bloated, overpaid, Union workers who negotiate their pay levels with violence  when more reasoably priced products are available, you are practicing charity.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2004, 10:04:20 am by Lloyd Danforth (lloydbob1) »
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RhythmStar

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2004, 11:45:51 am »

Everyone has their own wallet and their own way of lightening it. (shrug)

When the US labor market is tight and my countrymen are well-paid and not out of work, then I also enjoy buying goods made by developing nations.  For me, charity begins at home.  It doesn't end there, but that's where it starts.

RS


If you buy overpriced products from companies with bloated, overpaid, Union workers who negotiate their pay levels with violence  when more reasoably priced products are available, you are practicing charity.

If that is charity, even though I buy a product fairly priced and of good quality in the process, then what is it to buy a product created by slave labor in a Communist country, or those poor wretches in the merchantilist sweatshops south of the border?  Anti-charity?   Is there no such thing as a craftsperson fairly compensated and a customer pleased with his or her handiwork?

Are we becoming economic cannibals?

Ya know, pursuing happiness is not nearly as sweet as actually catching some from time to time.   I've lived off the land, I've done manual labor, I've been a professional musician, and I've been a high-flying corporate executive.  Wanna guess which lifestyle was happier?

RS
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<Patrick>

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2004, 04:22:18 pm »

BTW, I have to object to this tripe.  What makes companies fat and lazy is ignorance, not customers willing to pay a price for qualities they value.  To me, the fact that a fellow American got to feed his family as a result of me buying a car is definitely worth something.  THAT, my friend, IS the free market at work, invisible hand and all!


When it comes to my clothing, I always try to implement a Buy Bangladeshi policy.  It's much more important to feed Bangladeshi families than to feed American ones.

They wouldn't have to be fed if their subsistence culture wasn't been destroyed by globalization forces...

     BillG, why don't you just join the Progressive Party and move to Vermont? You would be much happier there. Perhaps the FSP is not for you...

 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2004, 05:21:47 pm by New Intellectual »
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2004, 05:16:28 pm »


FWIW, the economic globalization movement is a WORLD GOVERNMENT MOVEMENT.

Evidence?  And how would you propose to stop economic globalization?  Tariffs or other forms of violence?
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2004, 05:19:19 pm »


When the US labor market is tight and my countrymen are well-paid and not out of work, then I also enjoy buying goods made by developing nations.  For me, charity begins at home.  It doesn't end there, but that's where it starts.


That strikes me as a very jingoistic and immoral policy.  "Charity begins at home" makes sense when you're talking about people in your family or neighborhood, but when you're talking about people who happen to live under the same state, the underlying logic seems like something only a Fichte or a Mussolini could make sense of.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

RhythmStar

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2004, 05:26:54 pm »


FWIW, the economic globalization movement is a WORLD GOVERNMENT MOVEMENT.

Evidence?  

WTO.  EU.  

Quote
And how would you propose to stop economic globalization?  Tariffs or other forms of violence?

By simply choosing to buy closer to home whenever the quality is there and the price is reasonable.   And when I buy from overseas, I prefer to deal with individual entrepreneurs, like my Vietnamese translators, as opposed to multinational corporations.  Smaller is better.  

RS
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<Patrick>

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2004, 05:29:10 pm »


When the US labor market is tight and my countrymen are well-paid and not out of work, then I also enjoy buying goods made by developing nations.  For me, charity begins at home.  It doesn't end there, but that's where it starts.


That strikes me as a very jingoistic and immoral policy.  "Charity begins at home" makes sense when you're talking about people in your family or neighborhood, but when you're talking about people who happen to live under the same state, the underlying logic seems like something only a Fichte or a Mussolini could make sense of.

     The whole idea of "Buy American" is very un-American. This country is supposed to be a bastion for individualism, not some kind of nationalist collectivism.

     "According to a recent poll, 80% of Americans think it their patriotic duty to give preference to American-made products. But 'Buy American' is wholly un-American in both its economics and its philosophy.

     America’s distinction among all the nations of the world is that it enshrined political and economic freedom. Although we have departed greatly from our original laissez-faire principles, to the whole world America still symbolizes capitalism. Americanism means understanding that a free market, domestically and internationally, is the only path to general prosperity.

     International trade is not mortal combat but a form of cooperation, a means of expanding worldwide production. The benefits of international trade flow to both trading partners, even when one of the countries is more efficient across the board. This is the 'Law of Comparative Advantage,' covered in every economics textbook. Free trade does not destroy but creates employment."

www.aynrand.org/objectivism/buy_american.html

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<Patrick>

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2004, 05:31:32 pm »

Quote
By simply choosing to buy closer to home whenever the quality is there and the price is reasonable.

     Isn't this kind of a tribalistic attitude? Why does the fact that someone is "closer to home" make any difference?
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RhythmStar

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2004, 05:33:57 pm »


When the US labor market is tight and my countrymen are well-paid and not out of work, then I also enjoy buying goods made by developing nations.  For me, charity begins at home.  It doesn't end there, but that's where it starts.


That strikes me as a very jingoistic and immoral policy.

No problemo.  You are wrong, but hey, no one is perfect.

Quote
"Charity begins at home" makes sense when you're talking about people in your family or neighborhood, but when you're talking about people who happen to live under the same state, the underlying logic seems like something only a Fichte or a Mussolini could make sense of.

When I help pay the bills (like it or not) and the overall health of the US economy and employment picture impacts me and my family, it seems pretty simple to me.   If it makes it any easier for you to grok, try thinking of it as "team spirit", or perhaps "esprit de corps".   I guess I'd just rather patronize US businesses (when the quality is there and the price is reasonable) than pay welfare, or watch the homeless people stack up like cordwood.

For such a smart guy, Jason, you have some interesting blind spots. I trust you'll grow out of them.  :)

RS
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BillG

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2004, 05:36:55 pm »

BTW, I have to object to this tripe.  What makes companies fat and lazy is ignorance, not customers willing to pay a price for qualities they value.  To me, the fact that a fellow American got to feed his family as a result of me buying a car is definitely worth something.  THAT, my friend, IS the free market at work, invisible hand and all!


When it comes to my clothing, I always try to implement a Buy Bangladeshi policy.  It's much more important to feed Bangladeshi families than to feed American ones.

They wouldn't have to be fed if their subsistence culture wasn't been destroyed by globalization forces...

     BillG, why don't you just join the Progressive Party and move to Vermont? You would be much happier there. Perhaps the FSP is not for you...

 

NI-

you don't realize it yet because you are not living here in NH, but I am the best friend the FSP will ever have because as a Geo-libertarian I am a bridge to some members of the so-called progressive community who we will need inorder to be successful in NH...
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2004, 05:37:33 pm »


FWIW, the economic globalization movement is a WORLD GOVERNMENT MOVEMENT.

Evidence?  

WTO.  EU.  

Neither is even nascently political-globalist, although the EU does have a strong political-regionalist impulse that disturbs me.
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RhythmStar

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2004, 05:40:01 pm »

Quote
By simply choosing to buy closer to home whenever the quality is there and the price is reasonable.

     Isn't this kind of a tribalistic attitude? Why does the fact that someone is "closer to home" make any difference?

Call it a sense of community.  Or, maybe it's my Indian genes... (shrug)

Say, do you guys actively HATE the US and everyone in it?   I thought you did not, but perhaps I was wrong.  If I can do something to help my country, I will.  It's not like I never help foreigners in need.  (http://www.iabolish.org)

Someday, perhaps there will be no nation-states.  Today, nation-states compete for advantage.  Ignoring that is unrealistic.  And rooting for the home team is no crime -- after all, it's your home too.

RS
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2004, 05:41:14 pm »

When I help pay the bills (like it or not) and the overall health of the US economy and employment picture impacts me and my family, it seems pretty simple to me.   If it makes it any easier for you to grok, try thinking of it as "team spirit", or perhaps "esprit de corps".   I guess I'd just rather patronize US businesses (when the quality is there and the price is reasonable) than pay welfare, or watch the homeless people stack up like cordwood.

For such a smart guy, Jason, you have some interesting blind spots. I trust you'll grow out of them.  :)


Buying American-made goods doesn't help the American economy or do anything positive for unemployment, though.  It merely redirects some resources away from more productive American industries to less productive American industries (assuming you're buying for the American label at some cost in quality or price, or both).  Put it this way: the supply of currency in a country isn't its wealth.  By circulating currency you're not putting people to work; you're merely choosing to put certain people to work instead of others.
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<Patrick>

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Re:Asking for libertarian input..
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2004, 05:55:11 pm »

Quote
By simply choosing to buy closer to home whenever the quality is there and the price is reasonable.

     Isn't this kind of a tribalistic attitude? Why does the fact that someone is "closer to home" make any difference?

Call it a sense of community.  Or, maybe it's my Indian genes... (shrug)

Say, do you guys actively HATE the US and everyone in it?   I thought you did not, but perhaps I was wrong.  If I can do something to help my country, I will.  It's not like I never help foreigners in need.  (http://www.iabolish.org)

Someday, perhaps there will be no nation-states.  Today, nation-states compete for advantage.  Ignoring that is unrealistic.  And rooting for the home team is no crime -- after all, it's your home too.

RS


     RS, nationalism is a nasty form of collectivism. Are people in the  United States somehow better than people in Japan? Germany? The Philippines? Aren't we all just individual human beings? What does the fact that you happened to be born in a certain geographic area have to do with your ecomonic decisions?

     This “Buy American” crap is pure collectivism. This is the type of thinking that can lead to xenophobia and bigotry. We are all individuals, who cares what country we happen to be born in?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2004, 05:56:12 pm by New Intellectual »
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org
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