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[LeopardPM]

Wow Rhythm!  Glad you are so lucky, it has given me the chance to get to know you.

Hope that luck never runs out, sir!

michael

[<Patrick>]

Wow Rhythm!  Glad you are so lucky, it has given me the chance to get to know you.

Hope that luck never runs out, sir!

michael

     I wonder how many of us are here because of modern technology? I read about the infant mortality rate alone during the middle ages and it horrifies me!

[BillG]

Wow Rhythm!  Glad you are so lucky, it has given me the chance to get to know you.

Hope that luck never runs out, sir!

michael

     I wonder how many of us are here because of modern technology? I read about the infant mortality rate alone during the middle ages and it horrifies me!

do you not find the sweatshops that appeared in the middle age as peasants were forced off of the "commons" and into the cities equally horrific?

[LeopardPM]

there are more reasons than being 'forced' off the commons for why 'sweatshops' came into existance...

I do get a bit 'wary' when people start slinging around the old 'sweatshop' word... it is often used to describe businesses which I do not think deserve such a negative connotation.  I think the ones in medival england/Ireland do/did fit the bill, but alot of the supposed 'sweatshops' today do not fall under the same label in that they are not coercive.

[<Patrick>]

Wow Rhythm!  Glad you are so lucky, it has given me the chance to get to know you.

Hope that luck never runs out, sir!

michael

     I wonder how many of us are here because of modern technology? I read about the infant mortality rate alone during the middle ages and it horrifies me!

do you not find the sweatshops that appeared in the middle age as peasants were forced off of the "commons" and into the cities equally horrific?

     The Middle ages is the time period between about 800 AD and 1400 AD. Is this what you're talking about?

[Mike Lorrey]

Between the time of the Scottish uprising under Bonnie Prince Charlie, until into the Dickensian period, the countryside was being depopulated and increasingly drafted into the industrial machine of the empire. Scottish farmers were forced off the land so the lords could run sheep farms that supplied the mills. Those forced off the land were drafted to work in coal and iron mines and steel and woolen mills. Those that refused got transported to the Hebrides, and to Nova Scotia, etc. Thats  how my own Clan Gordon ancestors came to Nova Scotia, through the mills of Liverpool.

[nonluddite]

do you not find the sweatshops that appeared in the middle age as peasants were forced off of the "commons" and into the cities equally horrific?

Isn't that the same as modern farmers being "forced" out of the farming business, since they were not needed (i.e. couldn't compete), or did I miss that day in medieval history class?

[RhythmStar]

do you not find the sweatshops that appeared in the middle age as peasants were forced off of the "commons" and into the cities equally horrific?

Isn't that the same as modern farmers being "forced" out of the farming business, since they were not needed (i.e. couldn't compete), or did I miss that day in medieval history class?

Didn't the force Mike is talking about involve swords and such?

RS

[LeopardPM]

I saw a show on the potato famine and it was this reason that farmers could not suppor themselves and had to work in thease 'sweatshops'... ddon't know alot about the period though and perhaps this was just one contributing factor...

[RhythmStar]

Here is one writer's brief history of the 'commons', which ties together the roots of the term in medieval times with the present-day commons issues:

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/articles/article392.html

We should first define what we're talking about, and why it matters. "The commons" was the name used in medieval England to describe parcels of land that were used "in common" by peasant farmers, very few of whom owned enough land to survive upon. Their lives depended on access to and use of shared land that provided many necessities: pasture for their oxen or livestock, water in streams, ponds or wells, wood and fuel from a forest.

The land was probably owned by a titled notable, but the importance of the commons to the survival of the population was so obvious that strict rules, recognized by the courts, required landowners to ensure that the commons was available for use by peasant farmers. That access was considered a right, one that people took for granted, much as we assume we have a right to breathe air. How the commons was used, and by whom, was governed by the people themselves, ensuring that its benefits were fairly allocated. Property was thought of as a collection of rights as much as it was title to a piece of land--and often those rights took precedence.

But landowners began to think of how much richer they could be if they could remove the "commoners" and use the land themselves. They began to plant hedges or otherwise bar the way onto lands that had been used and depended upon by nearby families for centuries. This practice became known as "enclosure." Eventually the British Parliament bowed to the will of wealthy landowners and passed Enclosure Acts that stripped commoners of their property rights.

By 1795, about 0.5% of the population of England and Wales owned almost 99% of the land. Sheep grazed on former common lands while peasants starved, or were forced to move into the cities--which is why London became the first city in the world with more than a million inhabitants. Some provided labour for the factories of the Industrial Revolution, but tens of thousands of commoners were forced into vagrancy and destitution. In Scotland, they were packed onto ships, often at gunpoint, and transported across the Atlantic to the Americas in conditions often as bad as those on slave ships.

No mention of potato famine in this account.

RS

[Mike Lorrey]

do you not find the sweatshops that appeared in the middle age as peasants were forced off of the "commons" and into the cities equally horrific?

Isn't that the same as modern farmers being "forced" out of the farming business, since they were not needed (i.e. couldn't compete), or did I miss that day in medieval history class?

Didn't the force Mike is talking about involve swords and such?

Actually, muskets. An officer didn't bloody his sword with that of commoners, their blood might rust the metal.

[LeopardPM]

Thanks for the link, RS!  very interesting... sure is a good thing we have prvate property rights these days for everyone, not just the nobility....


michael

[nonluddite]

But landowners began to think of how much richer they could be if they could remove the "commoners" and use the land themselves. They began to plant hedges or otherwise bar the way onto lands that had been used and depended upon by nearby families for centuries. This practice became known as "enclosure." Eventually the British Parliament bowed to the will of wealthy landowners and passed Enclosure Acts that stripped commoners of their property rights.

Isn't that what barbed wire did in the West? (Like you can plant hedges in the West! )

Sorry to get off topic, but has anyone seen "Open Range"?

[<Patrick>]

But landowners began to think of how much richer they could be if they could remove the "commoners" and use the land themselves. They began to plant hedges or otherwise bar the way onto lands that had been used and depended upon by nearby families for centuries. This practice became known as "enclosure." Eventually the British Parliament bowed to the will of wealthy landowners and passed Enclosure Acts that stripped commoners of their property rights.

Isn't that what barbed wire did in the West? (Like you can plant hedges in the West! )

Sorry to get off topic, but has anyone seen "Open Range"?

     No, is it a good movie?

[Mike Lorrey]

But landowners began to think of how much richer they could be if they could remove the "commoners" and use the land themselves. They began to plant hedges or otherwise bar the way onto lands that had been used and depended upon by nearby families for centuries. This practice became known as "enclosure." Eventually the British Parliament bowed to the will of wealthy landowners and passed Enclosure Acts that stripped commoners of their property rights.

Isn't that what barbed wire did in the West? (Like you can plant hedges in the West! )

Sorry to get off topic, but has anyone seen "Open Range"?

Actually, in the West, it was the big cattle barons who were against barbed wire and for the commons. The Open Range act required that those homesteaders who did not want their crops eaten and sheep trampled by cattle herds, they needed to fence their land to keep the cattle out. Thus, it was the little guy standing up for private property and wealthy interests imposing common rights (theirs) against the little guy.