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Author Topic: Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings  (Read 18827 times)

RhythmStar

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2004, 08:41:25 pm »

Quote
Humans are not intrinsically more valuable than other life.

     You really think this?

Yes.  The reason is that humans (speaking of the species, not a few individuals for a few months) cannot (at least currently) exist without the biosphere.  Therefore, to value human life over all other life is logically akin to valuing your liver over your lungs -- both are necessary for your continued survival, so the only rational option is to value and defend BOTH!

RS
« Last Edit: January 14, 2004, 09:15:02 pm by RhythmStar »
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Morpheus

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2004, 09:15:24 pm »

Would you be willing to sacrifice YOUR life for a species, Rhythm?? I surely would NOT.

No one here is calling for the extinction of non-human species. Besides, with technology as it is- and as it is becoming- it would be possible to BRING BACK those species which would have gone extinct via cloning!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2004, 09:15:50 pm by Morpheus »
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RhythmStar

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2004, 09:24:10 pm »

Would you be willing to sacrifice YOUR life for a species, Rhythm?? I surely would NOT.

No one here is calling for the extinction of non-human species. Besides, with technology as it is- and as it is becoming- it would be possible to BRING BACK those species which would have gone extinct via cloning!


As I have stated before, I am perfectly willing to extinct all sorts of life to defend my daughter (my own life is rather less valued, as I am old and not long for this world anyway).   However, I do not defend this willingness as some sort of moral imperative, or even a transcendant virtue -- it is pure selfishness, and may even result in the destruction of what I would be trying to save (to whit, my daughter).  Yet, foolish human that I am, I would do so in an instant.

The difference between me and these others is that I know I am a fool, while they fantasize that they are not at least as foolish as I.  Fools!  :)

As for the extremis arguments, well, it is sometimes necessary to go to the extremes to get people to finally reject extremism and start talking sense.  Do enviros hold extremist, indefensible positions?  Of course!  My position is that it is up to the real rationalists to reject both brands of extremism and to seek the middle path, where we can set the bar a little higher and perhaps find solutions that do not trade the future for the present.

RS


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<Patrick>

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2004, 10:38:56 pm »

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As I have stated before, I am perfectly willing to extinct all sorts of life to defend my daughter (my own life is rather less valued, as I am old and not long for this world anyway).  However, I do not defend this willingness as some sort of moral imperative, or even a transcendant virtue -- it is pure selfishness, and may even result in the destruction of what I would be trying to save (to whit, my daughter).  Yet, foolish human that I am, I would do so in an instant.

     You should defend it as moral. There is nothing wrong with putting yourself and the one's you love first. Why do you think that there is?
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RhythmStar

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2004, 03:19:08 am »

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As I have stated before, I am perfectly willing to extinct all sorts of life to defend my daughter (my own life is rather less valued, as I am old and not long for this world anyway).  However, I do not defend this willingness as some sort of moral imperative, or even a transcendant virtue -- it is pure selfishness, and may even result in the destruction of what I would be trying to save (to whit, my daughter).  Yet, foolish human that I am, I would do so in an instant.

     You should defend it as moral. There is nothing wrong with putting yourself and the one's you love first. Why do you think that there is?


Would it be moral to destroy all humans to save the life of one human?

RS
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2004, 11:28:19 am »

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As I have stated before, I am perfectly willing to extinct all sorts of life to defend my daughter (my own life is rather less valued, as I am old and not long for this world anyway).  However, I do not defend this willingness as some sort of moral imperative, or even a transcendant virtue -- it is pure selfishness, and may even result in the destruction of what I would be trying to save (to whit, my daughter).  Yet, foolish human that I am, I would do so in an instant.

     You should defend it as moral. There is nothing wrong with putting yourself and the one's you love first. Why do you think that there is?


Would it be moral to destroy all humans to save the life of one human?

Humans do not equal animals. Sorry to PETA, but it is true. You are raising strawman arguments.
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<Patrick>

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2004, 07:07:04 pm »

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As I have stated before, I am perfectly willing to extinct all sorts of life to defend my daughter (my own life is rather less valued, as I am old and not long for this world anyway).  However, I do not defend this willingness as some sort of moral imperative, or even a transcendant virtue -- it is pure selfishness, and may even result in the destruction of what I would be trying to save (to whit, my daughter).  Yet, foolish human that I am, I would do so in an instant.

     You should defend it as moral. There is nothing wrong with putting yourself and the one's you love first. Why do you think that there is?


Would it be moral to destroy all humans to save the life of one human?

Humans do not equal animals. Sorry to PETA, but it is true. You are raising strawman arguments.

     I'm not so sure it's a strawman. Perhaps self-sacrifice for the sake of animals, plants and even inanimate matter is the logical reductio ad absurdum of a morality which puts the other before the self...

     Someone asked me once: "If you had to choose between yourself being killed or 1000 other people, what would you choose?" I said, provided none of the 1000 people were any of my loved ones, I would choose to let them die rather than myself. As sad and terrible as their deaths would be, I would still put my own existence first.

     I also added that such questions rarely come up under normal conditions in the real world. Such a perverse circumstance where somebody has to loose their life either way is not the to-be-expected, normal way life works.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 07:11:04 pm by New Intellectual »
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RhythmStar

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2004, 07:41:41 pm »

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As I have stated before, I am perfectly willing to extinct all sorts of life to defend my daughter (my own life is rather less valued, as I am old and not long for this world anyway).  However, I do not defend this willingness as some sort of moral imperative, or even a transcendant virtue -- it is pure selfishness, and may even result in the destruction of what I would be trying to save (to whit, my daughter).  Yet, foolish human that I am, I would do so in an instant.

     You should defend it as moral. There is nothing wrong with putting yourself and the one's you love first. Why do you think that there is?


Would it be moral to destroy all humans to save the life of one human?

Humans do not equal animals. Sorry to PETA, but it is true. You are raising strawman arguments.

Not at all -- he posited that it was ALWAYS moral to put yourself and your loved ones first.  I posited a situation where the choice was between me and mine and other humans.  To me, that equals a moral dilemma that I'd like to read NI's response to.

Sorry to derail your semantics train. :)

RS
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<Patrick>

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2004, 09:23:14 pm »

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As I have stated before, I am perfectly willing to extinct all sorts of life to defend my daughter (my own life is rather less valued, as I am old and not long for this world anyway).  However, I do not defend this willingness as some sort of moral imperative, or even a transcendant virtue -- it is pure selfishness, and may even result in the destruction of what I would be trying to save (to whit, my daughter).  Yet, foolish human that I am, I would do so in an instant.

     You should defend it as moral. There is nothing wrong with putting yourself and the one's you love first. Why do you think that there is?


Would it be moral to destroy all humans to save the life of one human?

Humans do not equal animals. Sorry to PETA, but it is true. You are raising strawman arguments.

Not at all -- he posited that it was ALWAYS moral to put yourself and your loved ones first.  I posited a situation where the choice was between me and mine and other humans.  To me, that equals a moral dilemma that I'd like to read NI's response to.

Sorry to derail your semantics train. :)

RS


     Read my last post, it was my reply to a question that I do not see as a dilemma at all.

     "I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone's right to one minute of my life. Nor to any part of my energy. Nor to any achievement of mine. No matter who makes the claim, how large their number or how great their need. ...I am a man that does not exist for others."

--Ayn Rand

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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
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RhythmStar

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2004, 09:31:26 pm »

So, you would choose to extinct the human race so long as by that choice you might live out your solitary life?

RS
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<Patrick>

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2004, 09:44:22 pm »

So, you would choose to extinct the human race so long as by that choice you might live out your solitary life?

RS


     Well, it wouldn't be much of a life without anyone else around. Give me one other person--a woman. ;)

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RhythmStar

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2004, 11:19:17 pm »

Would you accept a virtual substitute, so long as the VR were extravagantly realistic and the AI very good company?

RS
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<Patrick>

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2004, 11:23:49 pm »

Would you accept a virtual substitute, so long as the VR were extravagantly realistic and the AI very good company?

RS

     No. I want the flesh-and-blood real deal!
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
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RhythmStar

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2004, 03:57:47 pm »

Would you accept a virtual substitute, so long as the VR were extravagantly realistic and the AI very good company?

RS

     No. I want the flesh-and-blood real deal!

OK.  Imagine that I have recently acquired vast, God-like powers and am now able to offer you a small, shiny box with a big red button on it, along with the following deal:  visualize the perfect woman.  Now, press the button, and all humans (save yourself) will disappear from existence (no pain, just oblivion), after which your imagined perfect woman will materialize before you.   The entire planet and all the property of the prior occupants is now yours, to share with your companion (or not) as it suits you.  As for me, I'm off to the Cosmic Jam-Session Universe either way, to relax for a few trillion years.  See ya!

So, do you push the button, or not?

RS


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<Patrick>

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Re:Nature Worshippers Cause Death of Millions of Human Beings
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2004, 04:05:45 pm »

Would you accept a virtual substitute, so long as the VR were extravagantly realistic and the AI very good company?

RS

     No. I want the flesh-and-blood real deal!

OK.  Imagine that I have recently acquired vast, God-like powers and am now able to offer you a small, shiny box with a big red button on it, along with the following deal:  visualize the perfect woman.  Now, press the button, and all humans (save yourself) will disappear from existence (no pain, just oblivion), after which your imagined perfect woman will materialize before you.   The entire planet and all the property of the prior occupants is now yours, to share with your companion (or not) as it suits you.  As for me, I'm off to the Cosmic Jam-Session Universe either way, to relax for a few trillion years.  See ya!

So, do you push the button, or not?

RS




     Can we breed and have kids? Will we be immortal, or will we age and die eventually? Before I embark on mad flights of fancy I want all the facts!


 :)
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
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