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Author Topic: The Ultraminimal State  (Read 14770 times)

Tracy Saboe

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2004, 03:45:02 am »

But you'd still need to abolish the Federal, and State governments and maybe even the county ones to provide that level of competition that we need for politicians to behave like businessmen right?

Tracy Saboe
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We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

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LeopardPM

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2004, 11:37:35 pm »

As long as there is an 'opt out' feature without punishment, then I am all for the UM government - basically it allows for AnCap to result if the market desired it - fine by me!  I swing towards having the market decide in all things, it represents us, as humans, most efficiently - if we are moral - so will it.
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<Patrick>

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2004, 11:54:40 pm »

As long as there is an 'opt out' feature without punishment, then I am all for the UM government - basically it allows for AnCap to result if the market desired it - fine by me!  I swing towards having the market decide in all things, it represents us, as humans, most efficiently - if we are moral - so will it.

     Exactly. The arbitrary and vauge "social contract" is replaced by a LITERAL contract one can actually opt-out of.

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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
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LeopardPM

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2004, 11:59:09 pm »

Actually, I see that the only way AnCap could ever come about is AFTER a generation or two of having a UM.  As people, we need to learn how to live and play in a world with so much freedom/responsibility... this can only be done in steps... UM being the last step to AnCap.

michael
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LeopardPM

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2004, 08:26:27 pm »

But you'd still need to abolish the Federal, and State governments and maybe even the county ones to provide that level of competition that we need for politicians to behave like businessmen right?

Tracy Saboe

as long as the government the politicians inhabit confers more rights and powers onto itself than an ordinary citizen has, then politicians will never act like business men - they will act like men with immense power over others... whereas the wealth (that is a poor substitute for power) that businessmen have has natural limitations, the dividing line where their 'money power' ends is right where my rights begin... not so with governmental power, it knows no boundaries...

michael
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<Patrick>

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2004, 08:31:17 pm »

Actually, I see that the only way AnCap could ever come about is AFTER a generation or two of having a UM.  As people, we need to learn how to live and play in a world with so much freedom/responsibility... this can only be done in steps... UM being the last step to AnCap.

michael

     

     I look at it this way: Establishing a UM state would not hurt anything, as nobody's rights would be violated. The UM state would not itself violate NAP/ZAP, and nobody would be forced to be part of it, as they have the right to opt-out.

     If it turned out that having a final judicial authority was necessary, then the UM state would continue to exist--if  it turned out to be unnecessary, everyone would just opt-out, it would cease to exist, and we would have true AnCap.

     Either way sounds good to me!

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<Patrick>

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2004, 08:40:24 pm »

But you'd still need to abolish the Federal, and State governments and maybe even the county ones to provide that level of competition that we need for politicians to behave like businessmen right?

Tracy Saboe

as long as the government the politicians inhabit confers more rights and powers onto itself than an ordinary citizen has, then politicians will never act like business men - they will act like men with immense power over others... whereas the wealth (that is a poor substitute for power) that businessmen have has natural limitations, the dividing line where their 'money power' ends is right where my rights begin... not so with governmental power, it knows no boundaries...

michael

     The UM state would allow the existence of competing private courts. Ideally, the UM state would simply act as the supreme court, and the vast majority of courts would be private companies. The UM state courts would also NOT be funded by tax money--and so would have to run themselves like an efficient business or cease to exist. Seems like a very clever way to keep the government as small as possible.


"The only proper purpose of a government is to protect man's rights, which means: to protect him from physical violence. A proper government is only a policeman, acting as an agent of man's self-defense, and, as such, may only resort to force only against those who start the use of force."

--Ayn Rand
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 09:06:05 pm by New Intellectual »
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<Patrick>

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2004, 08:54:27 pm »

I don't know. Hoppe's writings have been very convincing to me.

I still haven't been convinced that court systems can be done privately. However I also realize the corrupt nature of our current court systems, and think "how can private systems be any worse?" But then I think if we got rid of all the guild-like licensing systems. 9An inherent conflict of interest for laywars) the state court system might actually work.

I'd sure rather have market anarchy then what we currently have. However I'm not at all convinced that market anarchy would remain that way and not turn into criminal anarchy. However I think I've been convinced that since criminal anarchy is only possible in a non-market environment,

See http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/17_2/17_2_1.pdf

market anarchy couldn't devolve into criminal anarchy. So if we can make sure that when we abolish government, we do it peacefully so that the current market economy stays intact when government's abolished, I think we'll probably be all right.

Still, I haven't been convinced that private court systems would work. But let's abolish everything else -- including government police. (Socialised protection by its very nature incourages crime and discourages private crime prevention measures)

So anyway Yeah, I'm anarchistic about everything else except courts currently.

Tracy Saboe

     How would the verdicts of the state courts be enforced without some kind of police body? Perhaps all regular security could be handled by private companies, but shouldn't there still be sheriffs to enforce the orders of the courts?
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
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http://www.aynrand.org
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2004, 12:11:15 am »

But you'd still need to abolish the Federal, and State governments and maybe even the county ones to provide that level of competition that we need for politicians to behave like businessmen right?

Tracy Saboe

as long as the government the politicians inhabit confers more rights and powers onto itself than an ordinary citizen has, then politicians will never act like business men - they will act like men with immense power over others... whereas the wealth (that is a poor substitute for power) that businessmen have has natural limitations, the dividing line where their 'money power' ends is right where my rights begin... not so with governmental power, it knows no boundaries...

michael

I'm simply referring to how small geographic areas as oposed to larger geographic areas increase the threat of Emmigration to the government. If it's relatively easy for individuals to move out of the government, they can't be too tyrranistic otherwise it'll be a ghost state. Small localised governments (citi-states) contain the greatest threat of emmigration to the local government. The bigger the government (geographically) is, the harder it is to leave and escape tyranny because, "There's no place to go."

So having citi-states, as opposed to county, or State, or Nation-states, forces politicians to behave much more like businessmen in that, if they steal too much people will simply leave.

States can steal more, because it's harder to leave them.

Nations can really be tyrranical because it' next to impossible for most victums of state tyranny to emmigrate.

Of course World-government would be the epitomee of tyranny. Simply because, "There physically isn't anywhere to flee to."

Anyway, that's all I meant about abolishing State and Federal governments. I don't believe it's possible for federal and state governments to behave as businessmen. There's simply too much monopoly control over said geography, for politicians to have any incentive to behave like businessmen.

In responce to NI
Quote
How would the verdicts of the state courts be enforced without some kind of police body? Perhaps all regular security could be handled by private companies, but shouldn't there still be sheriffs to enforce the orders of the courts?


I would just like to say that this is a perfect example of how a little bit of hampering leads to more hampering. Public courts, naturally lead to public protection.

Yes, I don't neccessarily have a problem with a public Constabulitory (like a Sherrif) to help try to enforce the public courts eddicts. However back when all we had was the Sherrif, they relaly didn't have the neccessary fire-power, physical authority themselves to FORCE people to obey the rulings of the public courts anyway. They relied on private help. (Posse's, etc.)

So, quite frankly, I don't think we would even need the Constabulitory. Simply if somebody needs to be tried for murder, put a bounty out to bring him in to court (ALIVE! If he get's killed, then the private person, entity, or police business that killed him would definetly be responsible.) To face trial.

If somebody's found guilty, The victum would require both restitution, and punishment. Force the perpetrator to pay for his restitution, and he could choose whatever private prison he wanted to go to to work that restitution off and punishment.

The public courts could auction off to the availible private police services out there the responsibility and right to enforce each specific ruling (regarding two parties and only those two parties) of the public court -- in much the same way road repair work is curently supposed to be actioned off to the lowest bider.

It's messy. And perhaps it could be looked at rightly as a fascist police system instead of a totally private. (I don't know. What would you call a police system in which each individual job the state needs done is auctioned off to the private police companies?) But that would still be infinitely better then the modern completely socialized modern police system's we have now.

Then, if the market as a whole didn't agree with the public court's rulings, they might have difficulty finding somebody to help them enforce it? If a private police company takes a job that the market as a whole feels is wrong, it might face boycott. It could be another check against government tyrrany. Meanwhile if the ruling is just or boarderline it would be easier to find a private company willing to enforce it (for a fee obviously). Where that money would come from? A government that minimal could probably survive on a volentary funds system (donations, lotto, etc.) You'd have private citizens volenteering as the jury somehow (With full knowledge about jury nulification, etc.) and private citizens and entities as the enforcer as well (With full knowledge about police nulification, etc.). The only part of the 3 parts of the courtroom (Judge, Jurry, and Executioner) that would be state, would be the Judge.

Perhaps you could have a system whereby any trial that comes to the public court system, would be auctioned of to the private police companies to carry out it's verdict (whatever it is.) and then if the private police company that wins the bid, hears the verdict, and doesn't like it, that particular company would have full rights to simply refuse to enforce it, just like Jury's can nulify bad laws, etc.

Anyway, this is all off the cuff.

BTW, we don't need government courts for civil suits, private arbitration can deal with that. I just haven't been convinced that we don't need them for criminal suits (Murder, Rape, Kidnapping, Theft, Vandelism. That's about it I think. Maybe fraud, but here some people would expand and widen the definition of fraud so much that everything would be a government matter. So, I think fraud should be left to private courts also.)

Tracy
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We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
Conway is Backed by Wall Street Bankers

<Patrick>

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2004, 04:54:02 pm »

Quote
BTW, we don't need government courts for civil suits, private arbitration can deal with that. I just haven't been convinced that we don't need them for criminal suits (Murder, Rape, Kidnapping, Theft, Vandelism. That's about it I think. Maybe fraud, but here some people would expand and widen the definition of fraud so much that everything would be a government matter. So, I think fraud should be left to private courts also.)

Tracy

     Have you studied law? I wonder what libertarian leaning lawyers would have to say about these issues?

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LeopardPM

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2004, 04:58:58 pm »

Tracy,
Fraud is just another form of theft
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2004, 05:06:15 pm »

I just have a friend who thinks everything is fraud. She thinks that when somebody concents to doing anything that might potentially harm themselves, that the person this somebody consented too is guilty of fraud.

It's ubsurd. She thinks the only role for government is defending life, liberty, and property, and then she says that People who sell drugs engage in fraud. People who allow smoking in there own resteraunt engage in fraud. People who don't say what's in there food they sell engage in fraud. etc.

Basically, she anything less the full discloser of all the problems and potential problems associated with the product or conduct of the business she's entering is fraud.

But individual people have a meriod of things that bug them, and if business owners were force to document everything they do that may or may not offend any one individual, they'd be out of business. New annoyances are always being created/invented, and it's just impossible to keep up.

See, my definition of fraud is that if somebody actually LIES to you to sell you a product. Her definition is much more expansive. If the seller doesn't volentear enough information he's still guilty of fraud.

Her definition of fraud, is so grand, that the libertarian society she would set up really wouldn't be that much different from what we currently have. It would still be overly litegous, sue happy, etc.

Which is why it seems to me that tort should be settled by private law. Public law has actively encouraged lawsuits over oreos, etc.

Anyway, no I don't really know much about law. This person says she does. But anyway.

Tracy
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We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2004, 05:07:39 pm »

Tracy,
Fraud is just another form of theft

I realize that. But, see my above post. I know a lady who thinks EVERYTHING's fraud.

Anyway,

Tracy
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We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

Jack Conway

Conway Supports Obamacare
Conway Supports Cap and Trade
Conway Supports Abortion
Conway’s Utilities Rate Hike Scandal
Conway is in Bed with Big Pharma
Conway is Backed by Wall Street Bankers

LeopardPM

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2004, 05:19:54 pm »

Tracy,
Fraud is just another form of theft

I realize that. But, see my above post. I know a lady who thinks EVERYTHING's fraud.

Anyway,

Tracy

your friend has a problem with self-responsibility - it is not up to others to be responsible for your welfare - only to what they agree to.


michael
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<Patrick>

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2004, 05:27:16 pm »

Tracy,
Fraud is just another form of theft

I realize that. But, see my above post. I know a lady who thinks EVERYTHING's fraud.

Anyway,

Tracy

your friend has a problem with self-responsibility - it is not up to others to be responsible for your welfare - only to what they agree to.


michael


     Leopard, at least you're protected from people like her by your disclaimer:

"The views expressed in this post are not necessarily the views of the author, any interpretations or extrapolations of such views are also most likely to be misguided and incorrect - Please read at your own risk!"

 ;)
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org
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