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Author Topic: The Ultraminimal State  (Read 14769 times)

<Patrick>

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The Ultraminimal State
« on: January 05, 2004, 06:50:57 pm »

     
     I emailed Paul Birch about the ultraminimal state and this is what he responded:

"The concept of the ultraminimal state (a night-watchman state from whose protection one may opt out while still remaining within its territory) comes from  Nozick's Anarchy, State and Utopia (this should be required reading for all students of politics); in this he argues, mistakenly in my view, that there is a moral obligation to convert an ultraminimal state into a minimal state (which provides protection for everyone). I presume you've already seen the stuff on my website

http://www.paulbirch.net/

but you might also like to visit

http://www.libertarianunderground.com/Forum/index.php

The Minarchy board in particular includes some detailed discussions between Charles and myself, concerning such matters as the judiciary, legislature and police; for the most part, even when we don't say so explicitly, it's an ultraminimal state we're designing or assuming.

Thanks for your interest.

Paul

Paul Birch
http://www.paulbirch.net"

     Needless to say I will be reading Anarchy, State and Utopia.

     The ultraminimal state seems to have the best features of AnCap and Miniarchy, without the worst features.

     Unlike fullblown Miniarchy, one can choose to Opt-out of state protection, and there is no coercive taxation. Also, the structure of the ultraminimal state gives it no way to grow into a leviathan like a normal miniarchy could.

     Unlike AnCap, there is a final legal authority, and no power vaccum to be filled by a would-be tyrant.


     Does anyone have any opinion about the concept of an ultraminimal state? Objections to it?
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Terry 1956

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2004, 10:18:44 pm »

   
     I emailed Paul Birch about the ultraminimal state and this is what he responded:

"The concept of the ultraminimal state (a night-watchman state from whose protection one may opt out while still remaining within its territory) comes from  Nozick's Anarchy, State and Utopia (this should be required reading for all students of politics); in this he argues, mistakenly in my view, that there is a moral obligation to convert an ultraminimal state into a minimal state (which provides protection for everyone). I presume you've already seen the stuff on my website

http://www.paulbirch.net/

but you might also like to visit

http://www.libertarianunderground.com/Forum/index.php

The Minarchy board in particular includes some detailed discussions between Charles and myself, concerning such matters as the judiciary, legislature and police; for the most part, even when we don't say so explicitly, it's an ultraminimal state we're designing or assuming.

Thanks for your interest.

Paul

Paul Birch
http://www.paulbirch.net"

     Needless to say I will be reading Anarchy, State and Utopia.

     The ultraminimal state seems to have the best features of AnCap and Miniarchy, without the worst features.

     Unlike fullblown Miniarchy, one can choose to Opt-out of state protection, and there is no coercive taxation. Also, the structure of the ultraminimal state gives it no way to grow into a leviathan like a normal miniarchy could.

     Unlike AnCap, there is a final legal authority, and no power vaccum to be filled by a would-be tyrant.


     Does anyone have any opinion about the concept of an ultraminimal state? Objections to it?
                                                                               
        I think it is worth a look into and  I hope you peak others interest.
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Terry 1956

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2004, 10:51:21 pm »

   
     I emailed Paul Birch about the ultraminimal state and this is what he responded:

"The concept of the ultraminimal state (a night-watchman state from whose protection one may opt out while still remaining within its territory) comes from  Nozick's Anarchy, State and Utopia (this should be required reading for all students of politics); in this he argues, mistakenly in my view, that there is a moral obligation to convert an ultraminimal state into a minimal state (which provides protection for everyone). I presume you've already seen the stuff on my website

http://www.paulbirch.net/

but you might also like to visit

http://www.libertarianunderground.com/Forum/index.php

The Minarchy board in particular includes some detailed discussions between Charles and myself, concerning such matters as the judiciary, legislature and police; for the most part, even when we don't say so explicitly, it's an ultraminimal state we're designing or assuming.

Thanks for your interest.

Paul

Paul Birch
http://www.paulbirch.net"

     Needless to say I will be reading Anarchy, State and Utopia.

     The ultraminimal state seems to have the best features of AnCap and Miniarchy, without the worst features.

     Unlike fullblown Miniarchy, one can choose to Opt-out of state protection, and there is no coercive taxation. Also, the structure of the ultraminimal state gives it no way to grow into a leviathan like a normal miniarchy could.

     Unlike AnCap, there is a final legal authority, and no power vaccum to be filled by a would-be tyrant.


     Does anyone have any opinion about the concept of an ultraminimal state? Objections to it?
                                                                               
     I went to the libertarian underground site and looked at Pauls Police powers thread. Here is something that I found interesting, an armed citizen miltia but an un armed public police. This is to avoid the authority from getting into a shootout, if he needs help he can get a armed citizen to help. Paul lives in the UK and  the beat policemen have had a history of going un armed but the BS in the Uk about citizens carrying weapons I think is just about 50 years old. I wonder if such an arrangement that he described work in England or  anywhere.
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<Patrick>

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2004, 01:11:43 am »


     I am going to study this idea of the ultraminimal state further. First thing is to read Anarchy, State and Utopia--then I'll go from there. :)
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JasonPSorens

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2004, 11:13:14 am »

I'm an advocate of the ultraminimal state myself.  The argument between anarchocapitalists and "ultraminarchists" (for lack of a better term) boils down to whether a competitive justice system would eventually coalesce into an ultraminimal state through "natural causes."  Nozick's argument is this - Either one justice provider will win out in an anarchic situation, and become the dominant service provider (the ultraminimal state), or nominally competing justice providers will have to get together to decide how disputes among different justice providers will be resolved.  If the latter happens, you get a federal structure, in which disputes among justice providers are appealed to some other authority, whose decisions can perhaps be appealed yet again.  In either case, you end up with a single structure of justice provision, an ultraminimal state.  A purely competitive justice system is impossible.
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2004, 07:57:55 pm »

So, maybe we should just try to start with An Cap and then see where it goes from there :-)

Tracy
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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2004, 08:22:19 pm »

You're an Anarchist now, Tracy??
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2004, 04:04:32 am »

I don't know. Hoppe's writings have been very convincing to me.

I still haven't been convinced that court systems can be done privately. However I also realize the corrupt nature of our current court systems, and think "how can private systems be any worse?" But then I think if we got rid of all the guild-like licensing systems. 9An inherent conflict of interest for laywars) the state court system might actually work.

I'd sure rather have market anarchy then what we currently have. However I'm not at all convinced that market anarchy would remain that way and not turn into criminal anarchy. However I think I've been convinced that since criminal anarchy is only possible in a non-market environment,

See http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/17_2/17_2_1.pdf

market anarchy couldn't devolve into criminal anarchy. So if we can make sure that when we abolish government, we do it peacefully so that the current market economy stays intact when government's abolished, I think we'll probably be all right.

Still, I haven't been convinced that private court systems would work. But let's abolish everything else -- including government police. (Socialised protection by its very nature incourages crime and discourages private crime prevention measures)

So anyway Yeah, I'm anarchistic about everything else except courts currently.

Tracy Saboe
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<Patrick>

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2004, 06:12:37 am »

I'm an advocate of the ultraminimal state myself.  The argument between anarchocapitalists and "ultraminarchists" (for lack of a better term) boils down to whether a competitive justice system would eventually coalesce into an ultraminimal state through "natural causes."  Nozick's argument is this - Either one justice provider will win out in an anarchic situation, and become the dominant service provider (the ultraminimal state), or nominally competing justice providers will have to get together to decide how disputes among different justice providers will be resolved.  If the latter happens, you get a federal structure, in which disputes among justice providers are appealed to some other authority, whose decisions can perhaps be appealed yet again.  In either case, you end up with a single structure of justice provision, an ultraminimal state.  A purely competitive justice system is impossible.

     So you are saying that in either case, the ultraminimal state will result?
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JasonPSorens

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2004, 04:57:16 pm »



     So you are saying that in either case, the ultraminimal state will result?


Correct.  That's Nozick's argument, and I find it somewhat plausible.  After all, the only stable anarchist societies we can point to in history are nomadic hunter-gatherer groups.  (Yeah, I know about medieval Iceland, but medieval Iceland was really much more like a federal ultraminimal state than a capitalist anarchy.  And Somaliland is a (not totally stable yet) federal minimal state in the Lockean mold.)
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<Patrick>

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2004, 05:07:16 pm »



     So you are saying that in either case, the ultraminimal state will result?


Correct.  That's Nozick's argument, and I find it somewhat plausible.  After all, the only stable anarchist societies we can point to in history are nomadic hunter-gatherer groups.  (Yeah, I know about medieval Iceland, but medieval Iceland was really much more like a federal ultraminimal state than a capitalist anarchy.  And Somaliland is a (not totally stable yet) federal minimal state in the Lockean mold.)

     I see that I better hurry up and read Nozick... ;)
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LeRuineur6

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2004, 10:05:29 pm »

I was recently reading about anarchocapitalism and wondering how a true libertarian society would work.  How could a government become permanently minimized when run by politicians and bureaucrats, of which the vast majority, if not all, are corrupt tyrants?

Could a government exist with NO politicians or bureaucrats?

And what about justice and the enforcement of contracts?  How can a contract be ultimately enforced without at least a federal justice system?

Frankly, at this point, I do not believe a pure libertarian society is sustainable because it does not address these questions.

An ultraminimal state sounds intriguing.  I will definitely have to read more about this idea.

I see what's happening in Somalia and wonder constantly, how much government do we need?  Do we even need a President?  Or his cabinet?  Why?  How can we trust a politician or bureaucrat, which is, by definition, a power-hungry scumbag?

At this point my exact philosophy is up in the air pending answers to these questions.
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Terry 1956

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2004, 05:30:34 pm »

I'm an advocate of the ultraminimal state myself.  The argument between anarchocapitalists and "ultraminarchists" (for lack of a better term) boils down to whether a competitive justice system would eventually coalesce into an ultraminimal state through "natural causes."  Nozick's argument is this - Either one justice provider will win out in an anarchic situation, and become the dominant service provider (the ultraminimal state), or nominally competing justice providers will have to get together to decide how disputes among different justice providers will be resolved.  If the latter happens, you get a federal structure, in which disputes among justice providers are appealed to some other authority, whose decisions can perhaps be appealed yet again.  In either case, you end up with a single structure of justice provision, an ultraminimal state.  A purely competitive justice system is impossible.

     So you are saying that in either case, the ultraminimal state will result?

I disagree with Nozack, that a  UM state would be a forgone conclusion but I think it would be a good idea to hedge our bets and have a system of public courts as well as have a seperate( from the courts) public institution for defense. I also think it would be better that these public institutions basically only deal with governments and not with matters between individual citizens except in the case of where a local government is holding an individual as a prisoner or a slave.                                                              
           Now the above is in the context of member local governments. Now for defense if a group like Al Quedia or a AnCap company for all intents and purposes acted like a government then it should be treated as such.
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Terry 1956

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2004, 05:55:59 pm »

 I think a good look should be given to the NATO model where one member can veto a major charter action. Here is the way I think NH. could do it, the state would be in 2 divisions with 5 counties in each divsion. All major decesions spelled out in the constitution could be vetoed by one county in the division, on the other hand the other 4 counties  by unanimous vote could force a county to disassociated from the division. The dat to day management of the division would be by a manager who would be hired by the divisions chairperson. The chairperson would serve a term for one year. The chairmanship would rotate  between the 5 counties each year , in other words a chairperson would come from another county( selected by that county) every year. There would be  two assemblies, one for the courts and one for defense or better yet I would add a third, an assembly for prisons and workhouses.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:The Ultraminimal State
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2004, 09:52:37 am »

I was recently reading about anarchocapitalism and wondering how a true libertarian society would work.  How could a government become permanently minimized when run by politicians and bureaucrats, of which the vast majority, if not all, are corrupt tyrants?

I don't think any kind of "pure" society is sustainable. ;)  However, it would be a massive gain simply if we got government to act as honestly as the marketplace.  This might be possible if we had nearly perfect mobility among small political jurisdictions, forcing them to compete with each other for "customers."  In this environment politicians start looking much more like executives of competitive firms providing services - and you don't need fullbore anarchy to get this outcome.
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