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Author Topic: I have.....  (Read 10578 times)

Bama Sam

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Re:I have.....
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2004, 04:31:11 pm »

Thank you, Mike. This information is very enlightening.

What say you now, Neo-Confederate?
I still say that you are not very bright. You are trying to insult me, but the FSP movement is trying to do basically the same thing as the Confederacy did.
You can't call me a neo confederate. I am a Confederate. I still believe in states rights and the smallest federal government that is required.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:I have.....
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2004, 04:32:09 pm »

While Wallace did lose one election to a KKK endorsed candidate, when he was finally elected Governor, it was he who spoke his immortal words: "Segregation then, segregation now, segregation forever!"

Bama Sam is correct that some northern areas are more intolerant than many parts of the south. These are primarily areas with high immigrant populations and a history of labor violence, where blacks were used as scab labor to break strikes. Michigan, Ohio, Massachusetts, etc. have a history of immigrant-black enmity that continued on into the forced busing era. Some of the worst racial violence has occured in Boston between irish and blacks over the busing issue.

On the other hand, states like New Hampshire and Vermont, which are some of the whitest states in the union, do not see many reports of racial hostility. Typically blacks who live here are accomplished, educated individuals who do not perpetuate typical racial stereotypes. While we do have our share of ignorant hicks, they are looked down upon heavily while most blacks here are extremely well integrated into our communities.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:I have.....
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2004, 04:38:31 pm »

Thank you, Mike. This information is very enlightening.

What say you now, Neo-Confederate?
I still say that you are not very bright. You are trying to insult me, but the FSP movement is trying to do basically the same thing as the Confederacy did.
You can't call me a neo confederate. I am a Confederate. I still believe in states rights and the smallest federal government that is required.

I've illustrated this before, the South seceded ONLY because they had overturned the states rights argument and established federal supremacy in order to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act in northern states. It was the north that had argued for states rights and lost in the Dredd Scott decision (read your history).

The south seceded because it recognised that with federal supremacy and an abolitionist in the white house that it could no longer retain its command over its labor force so long as travel between the states was unregulated. They recognised that arguing for their states rights to retain slavery when they had previously disparaged the very concept was going to be seen by the courts as hypocritical.

They saw that they needed to establish a border by which they could control emigration and protect against abolitionist raids like Harpers Ferry.
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Bama Sam

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Re:I have.....
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2004, 05:01:30 pm »

I have read my history and studied long and hard on these things. I'll not keep arguing about it. The yankees won and were entitled to write the history as skewed as they needed it to be.
Lincoln was not an abolitionist, he was a politician in much the same vein as Wallace. Playing to his audience. Should you dig deep enough you will find that he was very much a racist. So what. None of this changes anything.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:I have.....
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2004, 05:57:34 pm »

Being an abolitionist does not make one not a racist.

Northern industrialists in need of cheap labor to break immigrant labor movements were for abolition but were in no way egalitarians of any sort.
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BlueLu

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Re:I have.....
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2004, 12:56:26 pm »

The south seceded because it recognised that with federal supremacy and an abolitionist in the white house that it could no longer retain its command over its labor force so long as travel between the states was unregulated. They recognised that arguing for their states rights to retain slavery when they had previously disparaged the very concept was going to be seen by the courts as hypocritical.

They saw that they needed to establish a border by which they could control emigration and protect against abolitionist raids like Harpers Ferry.
This is a questionable interpretation in my mind.  The fact is that the War Between the States started as an attempt by South Carolina to allow commerce into a port without paying certain taxes.  The feds came in to enforce the collection of the tax, and shooting broke out.  Speculate, as you want about all the forces in peoples minds leading up to this event, but the visible evidence says it was a tax revolt.  Three cheers for South Carolina!

As for Lincoln, he was not an abolitionist until it fit his purposes.  And a racist, he clearly was.  It was his plan to forcibly ship all Blacks out of the country.

As for Jim Crow Laws, the Klan, and rigged voter registration, they were all wrong, atrocious, and unjust.  But they are not at all surprising, given that Confederate veterans experienced the same treatment at the hands of Reconstruction governments, the looting carpetbaggers those governments protected, and, yes, at the hands of many Blacks who were being used as pawns by the Reconstruction governments.

It is curious that only in the US was a war necessary to end slavery.  All over the world in the 19th century, it was happening by a process of compensation to slave owners......
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:I have.....
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2004, 01:40:09 pm »

Well, I wouldn't say it was happening 'all over the world', because slavery exists today. What governments were doing was not allowing people to be newly enslaved, including the offspring of slaves. Objectively, the same approach could have been taken here. Of course, the Southern states knew this and took active measures against such changes, including banning technologies which would have made slavery uneconomical, and passing laws that stated a slave owner had a right to enslave the children of slaves. In addition to bans on educating slaves, it was evident that the south had no intention of abandoning slavery even if compensation were offered.
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vermass

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Re:I have.....
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2004, 01:50:23 pm »

   Morpheus, thank you for your apology and your pity! We plan on moving in summer of 05'. I hate this state.
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BlueLu

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Re:I have.....
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2004, 05:08:55 pm »

...the Southern states ... took active measures against such changes, including banning technologies which would have made slavery uneconomical....
Do tell.  I need more information in this area.
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Sean Coven

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Re:I have.....
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2004, 10:24:58 pm »

Hmm. If NH gets away with exempting itself from the 16th Amendment, what's to stop states like Massachusetts or Rhode Island from exempting themselves from the 2nd?

Or Mississippi from the 14th?

Or any state from the 5th?

What if one state chooses to nullify the two-term Presidential limit? Hmm? Could we see the state of Texas going to Reagan in 2004?

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights have to be respected even if we don't agree with parts of it. We have criticized liberals for trying to override the 2nd Amendment by simply ignoring it, so we can't do the same to the 16th without being hypocrites.

Blefuscu

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Re:I have.....
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2004, 12:47:47 am »

The 16th amendment is irrelevant.  A state exempting itself from it would have no effect on taxation.  The 16th did not give Congress the right to tax income.  That right already existed prior to the 16th.  The problem is that the income tax is misapplied.  The constitution does not give the Federal government the right to tax the income of citizens that is derived from sources within the United States.  This has been covered in several other topics, so I won't repeat the citations.

That said, states can't exempt themselves from any part of the constitution anyway.  Some majority of states would have to agree to repeal it, or perhaps to create another amendment to nullify a previous one.  For example, the 21st was passed to repeal the 18th (prohibition of intoxicating liquors).
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