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Author Topic: Why so few new people joining FSP?  (Read 29801 times)

caroline

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2005, 01:09:49 pm »

My (or "our"- it's my husband and me but he doesn't use this forum) reason for hesitating is that, while I think the project is fascinating, we're no longer sure we're interested in New Hampshire. We haven't spent enough time there to know if we'd be satisfied or not, but as in any lifesyle change there's the catch-22 that we wouldn't move to a place without having some idea of what things would be like there, so can't get one without the other.

If we do choose NH, Manchester or greater Manchester is the only place we'd consider...every other area is too remote for us, or specifically for me. I grew up in a small town and at this stage in my life I don't like rural settings at all (well to visit or vacation of course it's nice, but not to live). Currently we live in a city of 127,000- bigger than Manchester, and we're both bored out of our minds. Of course there's the good point that Boston isn't far away, but we're not sure that there would be enough reasons to justify living in NH versus MA.

I agree with a previous poster about seatbelt and helmet laws. I don't mind that those laws are in place because I wear my seatbelt regardless, so it wouldn't make me feel any more free if I had a choice (technically speaking I would be more free, but it wouldn't feel that way).

Someone said a while back that the no sales tax thing simply means that other revenues make up for that...as far as I've heard, the property taxes there are among the highest in the nation, which sounds a tad daunting to a young couple who wants to be able to afford a nice house with a scrap of land. As it is now, we'll probably be able to "inherit"(buy at significant discount) my family's homestead in western MA, so that would be our priority before investing in NH. NH also isn't the only state without a sales tax but as someone put it "they get you in other ways"...so I think that all things considered, the sales tax might be preferable.

The freedom of gun ownership would impress my husband, but not me. I personally dislike guns anyway.

I'm also concerned about insufficient population density in NH when considering promoting my creative-sector business (the more research I do, the more it sounds like we should be in a place like NYC) It seems that a lot of the jobs in New Hampshire are in the high-tech or public service (i.e. nursing, teaching) sector, or forestry? (I didn't say all, but it seems that many are) That's the same as the city where we currently live, and it's just not working out for us here.

Another big question mark for me is that I'm not sure I want to be an activist. I went through my "down with the system" phase when I was a teenager and now at this stage I'm more interested in promoting mentoring opportunities for women's issues and emotional support (motherless daughters, intercultural traveling and living, etc) activities, neither of which seem to be as prevalent in NH as they are in MA and NY. My husband has little interest in politics and I doubt he can be counted on to promote FSP.

I was dismayed when I learned that our beloved housepet is illegal in NH. Our pet is also illegal in the rest of the New England states, but what I mean is that this combined with the other points doesn't make NH seem any more free to us than the other states.

Now of course this doesn't mean we're definitely not moving to NH, but it just means that we're finding fewer reasons to move there. We'll see. In any case, for the sake of those who are passionate about it, I do hope that the project continues and who knows, we might want to become part of it after all.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 03:08:56 pm by caroline »
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Dreepa

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2005, 07:56:48 pm »

No one is going to search your house for your chipmunk.
Maybe you can even help change the laws in NH to allow them.

There are many ways to be an activist.. find the method that suits you.

No income tax and no sales tax.  MA has both and property taxes.  Add the three up and they will be more than just property taxes in NH.  I am moving from CA.  What I currently pay in income tax will more than pay for my future property tax.

Best of luck whatever you decide.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #92 on: July 21, 2005, 08:00:40 pm »

Agreed.  Being an activist means doing *something*.  For some people that's holding signs at a protest, others it's calling talk shows, others it's stuffing envelopes or writing letters to the editor.

In regards to the anti-chipmunk law, I agree with Dreepa.  Bad laws deserve to be broken.
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freedomroad

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #93 on: July 21, 2005, 11:28:31 pm »

If we do choose NH, Manchester or greater Manchester is the only place we'd consider...every other area is too remote for us, or specifically for me. I grew up in a small town and at this stage in my life I don't like rural settings at all (well to visit or vacation of course it's nice, but not to live). Currently we live in a city of 127,000- bigger than Manchester, and we're both bored out of our minds. Of course there's the good point that Boston isn't far away, but we're not sure that there would be enough reasons to justify living in NH versus MA.

Yeah, I live in the largest city in my state (I think it is the 35 largest city in the US or something) and I'll likely live near a large city in NH.  That is pretty easy because cities like Salem are only 30 min from Boston.  Of course, 200,000+ people live in Mass on the NH/MA border near Salem.  The seacoast region of NH is not rural.

However, it is important to remember that the FSP is not about the current freedom in NH, it is about the freedom that will exist in NH once thousands of liberty activists have moved to NH.  Even though NH is likely the freest state in the nation (and has been rated the best state to live in), that is not the point.  In 5, 10, 15 years, after we work a little in NH, it will be in much better shape than it is now (while states like Mass will be much worse than they are now).  Come join us and be a part of this great movement.  It will be too much fun to miss.
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DanaInNV

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #94 on: September 03, 2005, 03:42:54 pm »

After reading through the forums I can only answer for myself and I'll probably be bashed to death but here goes.... I think you have a wonderful idea, in theory anyway.  It certainly attracted me enough to at least take a look. 

One thing that scared me half to death was looking up who your state senators were.  Sorry but no way Jose, can't bring myself to put myself in their domain. 

Read through tons of posts and saw that guns are a huge issue for many.  We can already carry guns here and a lot of people do, right into the grocery store and local businesses, no big deal.  Prostitution and gambling are also legal here, also no big deal, doesn't affect me or anyone else not involved with it here.  We do not have a state tax, yes we do have sales tax...the Las Vegas tourists pay for a lot of the "infrastructure" here.  You can open nearly any business nearly anywhere in this county, very minimal zoning restictions.  If you take in less than 10k in gross receipts you do not need a business license or any other kind of permit.  Law enforcement-I hear they exist here, there are occasional sightings.  Pretty much confine themselves to serious crimes...murder, rape, etc.  Traffic enforcement almost non-existant, driving here is SERIOUSLY hazardous to your health.  Traffic rules are considered a suggestion.  Oh, and yes, many people homeschool their children.  Basically most of the things I see people posting about already exist here.  Is it paradise?  Absolutely not, nor is it the worst place on earth either.  There are trade offs.  Expect to be self sufficient, don't expect police protection, do not expect quick ambulance service if you become ill.  Expect to meet a lot of nutballs.  Know that your chances of dying in a traffic accident are several times higher than the national average.  Basically I like it here in spite of the drawbacks but after reading the forums I have huge doubts that many of the people moving to NH would be able to cope in REAL life with the type of society you'll get if you are successful.  It would be paradise if all people were sane, rational, and minded their own business.  Unfortunately a lot of people are not any of those things and you will get herds of those the minute they get wind of a place to go with few rules.  I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying it's important to be fully aware of the things you will have to do without and inconveniences you will have to put up with. 

I am totally supportive of what you are trying to do but at this time I would actually be leaving a "less restrictive" place for a far more restrictive one with a climate I'd hate and people who might or might not fully understand the end results of what they advocate.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #95 on: September 03, 2005, 08:51:31 pm »

...so why were you attracted?
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FreeBoB

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #96 on: September 03, 2005, 09:09:41 pm »

DanaInNV,

Thanks for your support, and I'm glad you're happy in NV.  If you lived in a shitty-ass state like NY, you'd be signing a different tune! 

State Senators, at this point in time, just don't matter.  In not too long a time, they will be a footnote in NH history.  We're just getting started.   ;D

Brian
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DanaInNV

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #97 on: September 03, 2005, 09:18:26 pm »

Oh yes, if I lived in NY I'd have been in NH last year.   I sincerely hope Sununu & Co. do become a footnote and who knows...as population increases here things may change and NH is not totally out of the question.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #98 on: September 04, 2005, 08:10:04 am »

After we get done in NH ..... there will be things going on here that are illegal in Vegas :o
NH will be a haven of freedom ...... and we have water  ;)

Vegas "What happens here. Stays here"

NH "Who comes here. Stays here"
Vegas is nice to visit .... NH is a lifestyle 8)
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

JasonPSorens

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #99 on: September 04, 2005, 10:56:08 am »

Not to try to change your mind... (Okay, well maybe a little bit.)

Here's the Nevada report we commissioned early on in the state selection process:
http://freestateproject.org/archives/state_reports/nevada1.php

Also, here is some information on the insane (I mean that in the most literal sense possible) Supreme Court of Nevada. ;)
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

DanaInNV

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #100 on: September 04, 2005, 01:12:59 pm »

I agree with both of you on most points there, far from perfect.  I don't live in Vegas though, not even in Clark county and there is a lot of difference from county to county.  Clark county is absolutely more restrictive.  FYI prostitution is NOT legal anywhere in Clark county including Las Vegas. 

The Yucca Mountain project is a huge issue here that concerns everyone including people in other states many of whom are probably not even aware that if this project goes through all that nuclear waste is going to be transported right over their railways and interstates regardless of wether or not their state had any part in producing it.  Believe me it's being fought tooth and nail here.  As it stands right now they've already had to extend the projected opening date, not going to happen by 2010. 
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--yuccamountain-let0831aug31,0,5041837.story?coll=ny-region-apnewyork

You having water is a huge draw :).  There is never enough water and in Clark county it passed critical years ago.  Where I am we all have wells as there is no public water supply and we are fighting the developers who are pushing to decrease lot sizes, we do NOT have enough water to supply a huge population and no one wants their wells drying up from the increased usage this would bring.  We also do not have gas and we don't want it thank you very much.  Some though not many yet even generate their own electricity.  We have an electric co-op that supplies most people.

So far we have voted down every attempt to incorporate despite having a population of roughly 30 thousand.  Again it has been mostly developers pushing for incorporation.  Eminent domain is pretty much a no go here and if anyone were crazy enough to try it they would likely be shot, not saying that is a good thing but that would be very likely to happen. 

I'd have a lot of concerns about moving.  Higher population densities, employment, cost of living (looked it up, significantly higher in NH).  My husband and I both work outdoors and the winters could be a serious problem for us...we don't sit in offices.  I would truly loathe being dependant on public utilities.  Very nice state for people who like towns and cities but I'm not sure we'd do well there.  We will probably visit in the next year or two to look around for ourselves, not 100% sold either way yet.  We aren't rich people but we own our land and home free and clear so it would make no sense to move if we would end up paying more to live, have to take on a mortgage to retain our lifestyle and possibly have to retrain for employment at mid-life.  Scary thoughts. 
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #101 on: September 04, 2005, 01:48:59 pm »

Relocation is definitely a big deal. In my position right now, I expect to build up my career qualifications a bit more before I'll be able to make the move. Everyone's situation is different - I know some people in the FSP who don't expect to move for another 5-10 years.

There are definitely places in NH where you would not have public utilities and the land (and existing houses) would be cheap. Probably 70% of NH's land area consists of such places. But those also tend to be the colder areas of the state, away from the seacoast and away from "city jobs." I think NH has something for everyone - except people for whom year-round warm weather is a make-or-break issue.

In any case, whatever you decide, welcome to the forum and please do stick around. If you like, you can sign up as a Friend of the Project and stay abreast of happenings that way:
https://secure.freestateproject.org/joinFriend.jsp
« Last Edit: September 04, 2005, 01:50:57 pm by JasonPSorens »
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JonM

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #102 on: September 04, 2005, 01:52:34 pm »

The shame is that to found this country people only had to be willing to die for liberty.  If this were going to be easy to do, there wouldn't be a need for the Free State Project.  Ever corner of America has something different that appeals to different people.  We as a group ask others to give up what they love about where they are so they may make sacrifices in the name of increasing liberty for themselves and those to come after us.  It will not be easy, the deck is stacked against liberty in so many ways, but those of us near or in New Hampshire realize the deck is not nearly so stacked there.  I think the most important thing about New Hampshire is most of its residents are willing to at least consider new ways of solving problems.  This is not something that can always be said about other places.
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BrianMcCandliss

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Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
« Reply #103 on: September 10, 2005, 03:28:11 pm »

The shame is that to found this country people only had to be willing to die for liberty.

Not COUNTRY; UNITED STATES. People fought for their respective states, not for the states collectively-- save as allies in the cause of sovereign independence.

Once the states were no longer united by free choice, then freedom was likewise a dead-issue, with no meaning other than as an argument against the laws which gradually destroyed it.

As such, people aren't willing to fight oppression that they can't see-- the current impression holds that the states were never free individually, and hence the federal government can literally do no wrong. Once people learn that the states ARE free by law, they'll be willing to fight for it.

Otherwise, the FSP would be just like putting a "pork me!" sign on your back-- for without freedom, states have no TEETH-- as would the FSP without sovereignty as well. This is exactly what caused the Civil War in the first place-- the southern states were being forced by majority-rule to fund over 80% of the union's treasury. By "going Kosher" ala swearing off pork, NH would quickly find itself in the same situation, since it would have no means to balance the ruthless rent-seeking activity which currently swamps the states-- and people would leave just to avoid being caught as the one with an apple in their mouth at the pig-roast.

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]I think the most important thing about New Hampshire is most of its residents are willing to at least consider new ways of solving problems.


I think MOST people are willing, if they are ABLE-- but without the liberty to govern their own affairs, there is NO ability to solve problems independently.

Otherwise, once freedom became the norm, natural selection would take care of the rest-- since a fool and his money are soon parted, and would quickly be bought out by more-realistic competition.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2005, 04:39:35 pm by BrianMcCandliss »
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