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Author Topic: Should we all move to the center of NH?  (Read 8120 times)

freedomroad

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Re:Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2003, 02:56:06 am »

OK, so has anybody done any studies on what the best cities to move to would be, to get the maximum impact with the least amount of work?

Tracy

Sure.  In theory, 4,000-5,000 activists could free the NH House.  The plan is simple.

Here is the key, though, all of the activists must be very example citzens.  They must be friendly and get along with political people.  Also, they must all be willing to run repeatedly for the NH House.

We find different districts and you guessed it, all the activists run for office.  The key is to run activists in the larger multi-seat districts.  If a district has 8 seats for example, we run 8 Republicans and 8 Democrats (these guys should work with the local DNC or GOP for a couple years first to built credit).  If we cannot do that, we should run people for the most popular party in the district (either R or D) and get them cross nominated for the second largest party in the area (either D or R).  We also need to run a handful of Libertarians and Independents (because the people of NH will expect that from us).

Most of the activists will not get elected, but many of the Dems and GOP ones will.  Once in office, the activists should vote for freedom whenever possible but vote the party line on the major issues.  If the activists continue to follow the plan for 5-6 election cycles, I bet we could have a majority of the NH House (though our majority would make up members of the Democratic Party, GOP, LP, and Independents).

As long as we continue to recruit people to move to NH, we should be able to keep the NH House.  Many of our House members will move on to the Senate and other higher offices.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2003, 12:53:46 pm by yestoAmerica »
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cathleeninnh

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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2005, 08:43:10 am »

Didn't Jason run some numbers a couple of years ago? The town of Derry stuck in my head somehow. After a year in Manchester, we are moving to Derry next week. Manchester IS nice and central (for the southern part of the state). I never hear about whats going on in the northern part. Here in the south there is way more than I can handle. Lots of choices for all kinds of activism.

Choose your flavor and go for it!

Cathleen
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2005, 09:30:28 am »

Didn't Jason run some numbers a couple of years ago? The town of Derry stuck in my head somehow.

Here you go... :)
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=5142.0
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Dave Mincin

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Re:Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2005, 01:19:36 pm »

Mike
What districts have been identified for implementing Porcupine numbers against the opposition's numbers?

Joe..Since I'm all over the place, I'll try and answer your question.  The short answer in none!

The folks coming are looking for comunities that work for them, not some grand plan.  They are looking
for housing, employment, and doing there best to plug into the communites of their choice.  Remember
we are freedom folks and do not play well with some grand plan someone else draws up on paper. 

It takes time to get established, and feel comfortable with your new home, so many of the folks are doing
that, and at the same time becoming involved in local and state issues.

At least before something like you propose has a prayer of happening we need more folks on the ground, and
even more, someone on the ground actively working to attain that goal.

At present we have neither.


Oops ;D
« Last Edit: July 13, 2005, 01:21:25 pm by Dave Mincin »
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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2005, 03:28:29 pm »

I thought Keene was the center of NH :-[
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Brien

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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2005, 04:21:26 pm »

I am familiar with the cities and towns mentioned in NH.  Particularly Lebanon and Keene.  You may do well to buy a building lot in Leb for 40K but once you build the house, Lebanon's property taxes will make your hair stand on end.  I am opting for tiny towns with very few school children to educate.  This keeps the property taxes in check and one can still enjoy the benefits of no income or sales tax.  One must also keep in mind that there are annual property assessments on cars, boats, and other "toys." paid to the Town treasurer where you live.  These assesments are based upon town needs.

It all depends upon how you are used to living.  If you require the super centers for shopping, jobs and "culture", then you will have to remain in Southern NH in Concord, Manchester, Nashua, Portsmouth or Keene.  But if you can live out in the "country", then consider smaller communities.

It is my personal feeling that there are so many Mass transplants in Southern NH that it is morphing into a hot bed of liberal democrats.  I think that their votes will soon bring either an income or sales tax so they can build and maintain lavish schools for their children while seeking property tax relief. They want to remake southern NH into a little Massachusetts.    I have written off NH below Concord for this reason.  The true conservatives remain in Central & Northern NH far from the jobs around MASS 128 and Boston.  So in reality, a larger contingent of Free Staters will be required to beat back these liberal movements in towns like Bedford, Nashua, and Manchester.

Just my opinion based upon 30 years of observation, not fact.
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freedomroad

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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2005, 10:49:07 pm »

One must also keep in mind that there are annual property assessments on cars, boats, and other "toys." paid to the Town treasurer where you live. 

Do they tax canoes and kayaks?
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"Hagrid"

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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2005, 12:32:39 am »

It is my personal feeling that there are so many Mass transplants in Southern NH that it is morphing into a hot bed of liberal democrats.  I think that their votes will soon bring either an income or sales tax so they can build and maintain lavish schools for their children while seeking property tax relief. They want to remake southern NH into a little Massachusetts.    I have written off NH below Concord for this reason.  The true conservatives remain in Central & Northern NH far from the jobs around MASS 128 and Boston.  So in reality, a larger contingent of Free Staters will be required to beat back these liberal movements in towns like Bedford, Nashua, and Manchester.

Just my opinion based upon 30 years of observation, not fact.

And sadly, the 'facts' argue against you, based on the learned observations of elected officials who are working for liberty now in the State House and whom I respect to have the long term experience here in the heart of things...  When you look at the votes cast, and the voting records of those they elect, it's often (but not always) the NORTHERN NH voters who are slowly voting in more economic liberalism.  Yes, some southern towns, and Concord and some surroundings stand out too... but many of those 'moving from Mass', especially close to the border, are very aware of what more taxes etc have done to Mass, and want out of there as a result.  It's part truth, part urban myth that the problem is purely "southern".  Why the northern folks?  Perhaps they're too far away to see what Mass is really like now... and expect the southern half (with the bigger population) to start picking up some of the bills for them.

Brien

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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2005, 09:28:37 am »

Seth:  You are correct, it is speculation upon my part but I  have seen what Mass has done to itself and do not trust  them at all.  I don't have the time to do the research but I do know towns like Bedford have sky high property taxes and those folks are going to be looking for relief from a broad based tax as the fiscal burdens increase.  This is the third rail of NH politics but I see a income tax coming and do not think it will be from votes supported in the Northern half of the state. 

As the southern tier of the state explodes, as it has in the past 25 years, so are needs for schools and services.  Where are they going to get the money from?  The property tax owners?  Raise the rooms and meals tax, again?   Raise the sin taxes again?  The growth needs to be funded from somewhere which is why I see a income tax coming into play.   The property owners in Manchester, Nashua and surrounding towns are going to cry "uncle" soon and they will probably eventually cave into the Democrats that are already calling for an income tax.

Now where are the Democratic strong holds in the Northern part of the state you allude to?  I can think of one, Hanover.  Littleton?  Conway?  Lebanon? Plymouth? Laconia? Gorham? Berlin?  I don't know but when my children were born in Leb, in 81 and 83, these towns and cities were mostly Republican and fiscal conservatives.  Lebanon was perhaps the most liberal in their politics, mainly because a spill over from Hanover.

I still believe the real fight looms large in Southern NH where the population is the greatest and the support for some kind of broad based tax will materialize, which I believe is already being considered by many in the southern portion of the state.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 10:25:55 am by Brien »
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Brien

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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2005, 10:20:15 am »

NH Bound

Quote from: Brien on July 13, 2005, 04:21:26 PM
One must also keep in mind that there are annual property assessments on cars, boats, and other "toys." paid to the Town treasurer where you live. 

Do they tax canoes and kayaks?

If it isn't registered, it most likely will fall under the radar tax screen.
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freedomroad

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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2005, 11:14:35 am »

NH Bound

Quote from: Brien on July 13, 2005, 04:21:26 PM
One must also keep in mind that there are annual property assessments on cars, boats, and other "toys." paid to the Town treasurer where you live. 

Do they tax canoes and kayaks?

If it isn't registered, it most likely will fall under the radar tax screen.

Thanks.  Also, if the recent movers from Mass have anything to do with it, I doubt NH will get an income tax.  Heck, recent poll results from Mass show that 45% of the voters want to end the income tax and replace it with nothing.  The majority of the Mass folks that moved to NH are likely to be much more anti-income tax then those in Mass.
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Brien

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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2005, 02:46:29 pm »

NH Bound

Quote from: Brien on July 13, 2005, 04:21:26 PM
One must also keep in mind that there are annual property assessments on cars, boats, and other "toys." paid to the Town treasurer where you live. 

Do they tax canoes and kayaks?

If it isn't registered, it most likely will fall under the radar tax screen.

Thanks.  Also, if the recent movers from Mass have anything to do with it, I doubt NH will get an income tax.  Heck, recent poll results from Mass show that 45% of the voters want to end the income tax and replace it with nothing.  The majority of the Mass folks that moved to NH are likely to be much more anti-income tax then those in Mass.


You know I am quite surprised at what has happened in NH since I moved from the Upper Valley back in the late 80's.  I looked at the voting stats posted and discovered Seth to be accurate with regard to the voting stats. in Northern NH  I am quite disappointed in my old stomping grounds.  Where do these Democrats come from?  Northern NH was always a stronghold of very conservative Republicans.  It is amazing to me how a few decades will change the  demographics.    Not that the Rebulicrats are that much different but I think we have more of a chance in politics with the Republicrats that we do with Democrats.

As for the southern NH Mass transplants, I was convinced that they would cave to the political pressure for increased services.  I am not particularly fond of southern NH but it is the economic engine that drives the state economy.  I am more comfortable with scoping out central NH but then again, I don't need to rely upon commuting to work.

So I must confess that it seems to me NH has been turned upside down since I lived around Hanover and Lebanon.  For me the North is way too cold, and winter too long and severe, the south is way too crowded and busy, so I will have to stick with looking around Grafton, Carroll, Sullivan, and Belknap Counties.

AS for the income tax issue, this really concerns me.  The property owners are taxed to the hilt and are probably being asked for more and more every year.  Where will it end?  The income and sales tax issue has been debated ever since I can remember from the late 60's.  It has always been the "third rail" of politics in NH.  Since I am so surprised at the change in demographics in NH, I will not be surprised when the politicians promise property tax relief in the form of the dreaded income tax.  If the democrats have made the gains they have in the last 25 years, then that income tax probably isn't far behind.  I hope I am wrong.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2005, 02:49:31 pm by Brien »
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KBCraig

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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2005, 01:13:49 am »

You know I am quite surprised at what has happened in NH since I moved from the Upper Valley back in the late 80's.  I looked at the voting stats posted and discovered Seth to be accurate with regard to the voting stats. in Northern NH  I am quite disappointed in my old stomping grounds.  Where do these Democrats come from?

Union paper mill workers. Uncertainty with mill layoffs and shutdowns create a clamor for government security. Depressed economies from closed mills cause unemployment and lowered housing prices, leading to an influx of welfare recipients seeking cheaper housing. "Back to the earth" types fleeing the crowded south for the Great North Woods, who then cry for government intervention against any of those privately-owned trees being cut down.

It's probably a variety of factors beyond those I've mentioned. I have no expertise, having never set foot in the state, but I've closely studied the North Country for some time now. It's where I hope to move, despite the Democrats.

Kevin

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Brien

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Re: Should we all move to the center of NH?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2005, 10:44:37 am »

You know I am quite surprised at what has happened in NH since I moved from the Upper Valley back in the late 80's.  I looked at the voting stats posted and discovered Seth to be accurate with regard to the voting stats. in Northern NH  I am quite disappointed in my old stomping grounds.  Where do these Democrats come from?

Union paper mill workers. Uncertainty with mill layoffs and shutdowns create a clamor for government security. Depressed economies from closed mills cause unemployment and lowered housing prices, leading to an influx of welfare recipients seeking cheaper housing. "Back to the earth" types fleeing the crowded south for the Great North Woods, who then cry for government intervention against any of those privately-owned trees being cut down.

It's probably a variety of factors beyond those I've mentioned. I have no expertise, having never set foot in the state, but I've closely studied the North Country for some time now. It's where I hope to move, despite the Democrats.

Kevin



Kevin:  OK I am familiar with the papermills up in Berlin.  They have changed hands so many times I could never keep track of them.  They were good, stable jobs until the early 80's when the mills were all having financial problems from competition up in Canada.  The Canadian government began to subsidize the logging industry and this in turn probably helped the Canadian paper mills to reduce their prices for their end products.  Much of the work back then went south to Georgia.  This probably left the children of the Union workers with low paying jobs in the service sector which always attracts Democrats and their recruitment.  This, not to mention "job protection" promised by politicians in DC.  Even the logging industry took a major hit.  The trucking industry survives but owner operators usually have to "deadhead" several hundred miles to load "cheap" loads just to get out of the Northeast.  However they make it up on the runs back into the Northern NE because no one will come here because it is so difficult to get out of the region with a load.  But trucking is another story.

I am glad to see you are "studying" the North country.  One of my closets friends grew up in Colebrook back in the 50's and early 60's.  She now lives in White River Jct, VT after living and marrying in Laconia.  I can get information from her but it won't be very current as even her mom now lives in Laconia.  I have several friends in central NH so anyone requiring information, please don't hesitate to ask.  You can look at all of the statistics but when you really want to know what it is like living in NH, you must talk to the natives, or other residents.  Keep in mind, one of the favorite bumper stickers of the natives reads:  "Welcome to New Hamsphire, Now go home."

I have personally witnessed resentment against "flatlanders" moving into the state from "away".  It takes time to acclaimate, but eventually the more intelligent people accept the "out -a- statahs."  Another favorite saying I heard repeated when my children were born in Lebanon was"  "Just because a cat has kittens in the oven, you can't call them biscuits."  I have always wondered what a "native" really is up there, until I realized they are the Indians for whom Ebenezer Wheelock from Columbia Connecticut started Dartmouth College to provide a "Christian" education for them all!  Good grief................

But anyway, you may run into some of this "prejudice" against out-a-statahs" but don't give  it a second thought because the intelligent residents will appreciate your diverse background from their basically "vanilla" society.

Good luck, and if you have any questions that I may be able to help you with, write anytime.

Brien
« Last Edit: July 19, 2005, 10:49:05 am by Brien »
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