Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Tax exempt status in the Free State  (Read 11951 times)

Solitar

  • Guest
Tax exempt status in the Free State
« on: September 28, 2002, 06:49:40 pm »

Eliminating taxes and going to user fees would solve the problem of tax exempt status for favored individuals or organizations - but that won't be feasible since some government services can not be successfully privatized. Thus some sort of taxes - sales, maybe property, or whatever will need to be continued -- regardless of how much we would like to get rid of them. Maybe someday?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2002, 11:57:48 pm by Joe, aka, Solitar »
Logged

JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5722
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2002, 11:11:21 am »

Nonprofits aren't currently exempt from sales taxes: if a nonprofit buys something, it still needs to pay sales tax on it.  So if we abolish income and property taxes altogether, then the issue of tax exemption seems to go away.  I actually think all taxes can indeed be replaced by user fees eventually, but that is a very long way away, perhaps a century or more.
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Cliff

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
  • What are you looking at?
    • Unlimited Freedom of Speech
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2002, 12:17:04 pm »

I didn't intend to have to pound this point into the ground, but here goes -

We agree, do we not, that nobody (or authority, etc) has the right to initiate force against another?

Therefore, we cannot finance our governemnt through taxation. To do so is to abandon a key principle. The end does not justify the means.

Joe, I'm sure as politicians go you're one of the better sorts, but 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions', my friend.

Let's not abandon the high ground before the battle has even begun.
Logged
http://freespeech.org/unlimitedfreedom/

"A free society, in the long run, will only prove as strong as the principles that underly it." - Robert Hawes

Halo

  • FSP Participant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
  • I'm still thinking.
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2002, 12:29:35 pm »


There is a fine line between a user fee and a tax. Ostensibly, a user fee is a tax on what I use, rather than what I don't use. But, user fees can be used for other than their intended purpose just like taxes are, unless we have honest people running the show, and have safeguards in place.

I agree with you Joe that non-profit orgs sometimes are as profitable as for-profit orgs. The main reason churches now get a non-profit status is to maintain the fictional wall of separation between church and state. (The Constitution simply says, "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion,...") But, that is another subject. That is why I support a national sales tax such as proposed by the Americans for Fair Taxation, the Fair Tax. Income tax is a slave tax and should be the first thing to go. And I hope we don't have to wait a hundred years for that. I don't think this country can stand another hundred years of the constantly increasing taxation of the people.


"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."
Logged
"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."
- Samuel Adams

Stumpy

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 996
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2002, 02:18:56 pm »

No religious or even any "non-profit" should be exempt from any sales, property, income, or other taxes or government imposed user fees.


Let me understand this.

While those in the FSP have agreed, “I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property”, you wish to increase the scope of government by subjecting more to taxation?  ???

We wish to decrease taxation. You wish to increase it.
Logged
Libertarianitis - A disease where one is incapable of doing anything other than debate. The sufferer is rendered totally incapable of being constructive and constantly marginalizes him or herself by displays of extreme negativity, bitterness and intransigence.

Stumpy

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 996
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2002, 04:05:59 pm »

So you want the present system…

Well, no, that’s the reason I am a member of the FSP.

The present system pits one group against another. One group says; “It’s not fair, we pay more taxes than that group”. Statists in government, salivating at the prospect of increasing government power, are all too happy to help by increasing taxes.

As to “paying for the services they demand”, I moved to the country because I was tired of folks demanding government services and wanting folks like me pay for them.

It seems silly and counterproductive to increase taxes on anyone or anything, while fighting to decrease government. Which is more important, reducing government or making things fair?
Logged
Libertarianitis - A disease where one is incapable of doing anything other than debate. The sufferer is rendered totally incapable of being constructive and constantly marginalizes him or herself by displays of extreme negativity, bitterness and intransigence.

Cliff

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
  • What are you looking at?
    • Unlimited Freedom of Speech
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2002, 07:44:58 pm »



Cliff,
You wrote of lotteries and of municipal water. Good ideas -- as far as they go. But how is your libertopia going to fund town and city streets, police, and fire departments? You've offered no solutions to those issues which are facing my compatriots on council as we struggle with a city budget for next year. Getting to zero taxation is a high road, but you have apparently no on-ramps with which to reach that road.




Frankly, I don't have a plan for you. I'm just pointing out that taxation violates the principle of not initiating force. If that doesn't bother you, that's fine. It bothers me.

I'm coming at this from a philosophical, not necessarily practical, viewpoint. It's easier to fight for principles than to live by them.

As George Washington wisely noted - "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force!" But I'm hoping it doesn't always have to be that way. And if the Free State Project is based on force, it is doomed to corruption and decay from the start - just like every other government.

But let's look at this question from another angle. Joe, what would happen if your city government suddenly stopped taking tax plunder to fund itself? Just stopped today, with no plan at all for how to provide the myriad services your constituents have become used to.

Would there be rioting in the streets? Would criminals run amok? Would the lights go out and the water stop running? Would your roads fall apart? Would your firemen starve and your houses all burn down? Probably none of that. Probably you would get together as a community and figure out ways to make it all work. A thousand different people would brainstorm five thousand ideas, some would be good ones, and life would continue.

Billions of people every day make decisions and take actions that further their interests, and get things done, without resorting to force[/i]. Maybe it's time government learned to do that.

Just because it's the easiest or quickest way; just because it's the way it's always been done; just because most people seem apathetic about being robbed - doesn't mean it's right.
Logged
http://freespeech.org/unlimitedfreedom/

"A free society, in the long run, will only prove as strong as the principles that underly it." - Robert Hawes

Zack Bass

  • Guest
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2002, 06:48:30 am »


Cliff wrote:
Quote
Joe, what would happen if your city government suddenly stopped taking tax plunder to fund itself? Just stopped today, with no plan at all for how to provide the myriad services your constituents have become used to.
I can guarantee, literally guarantee, the following will happen.

* Within a week or two there would be enough signatures on recall petitions to call an election.
* Within two months, after appropriate legal notice periods have elapsed, there would be a special election.
* The evening of the election we would be replaced by councilmembers who would re-instate what we repealed.

Meanwhile, and this I can not guarantee, there likely would be a suit brought for a court injunction against our actions. Actually that was tried when we passed a conditional use permit for a contractor. It was brought by a neighbor of that contractor. The injunction failed, but the lawsuit to overturn our granting of the permit did succeed. The contractor is back at square one minus months and thousands of dollars.



And this proves that... lowering taxes does not work in a democracy populated by statists.
It doesn't mean that it wouldn't work just dandy if the voters were libertarians.

And look at what you just said: you granted a "conditional use permit" for a contractor.
STOP WITH THE PERMITS ALREADY!
I bet you have zoning too.
All the crap that goes with such things is costly and promotes corruption - I bet you paid a lawyer to "defend" the actions of the City Council, didn't you?.  Paid him with tax money, didn't you?

You could lower taxes and still have police protection if you stopped funding the vice squad, for example.  Just stop enforcing "victimless crime" laws tomorrow and no one will be harmed (that's why they call them victimless) and your costs will drop.
Logged

Stumpy

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 996
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2002, 02:48:31 pm »

Joe:
Are you really this passionate about increasing taxation? ???
Logged
Libertarianitis - A disease where one is incapable of doing anything other than debate. The sufferer is rendered totally incapable of being constructive and constantly marginalizes him or herself by displays of extreme negativity, bitterness and intransigence.

JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5722
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2002, 03:46:24 pm »

Okay, y'all are playing hardball now, and that's fine, but don't let it get out of hand: remember the issue we're discussing here is a very minor one.

Caveat lector!
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Stumpy

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 996
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2002, 03:47:12 pm »

Joe:

You still have not clearly answered a question, do you not favor subjecting more individuals/groups to taxes?

Yes or no?

You speak of slander. OK, set the record straight right now, do you not favor subjecting more individuals/groups to taxes?

Yes or no?
Logged
Libertarianitis - A disease where one is incapable of doing anything other than debate. The sufferer is rendered totally incapable of being constructive and constantly marginalizes him or herself by displays of extreme negativity, bitterness and intransigence.

Stumpy

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 996
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2002, 04:04:36 pm »

I figured that one would go unanswered. ::)
Logged
Libertarianitis - A disease where one is incapable of doing anything other than debate. The sufferer is rendered totally incapable of being constructive and constantly marginalizes him or herself by displays of extreme negativity, bitterness and intransigence.

Zack Bass

  • Guest
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2002, 05:27:41 pm »


Joe:

You still have not clearly answered a question, do you not favor subjecting more individuals/groups to taxes?

Yes or no?

You speak of slander. OK, set the record straight right now, do you not favor subjecting more individuals/groups to taxes?

Yes or no?


I thought it was pretty clear, when you first asked whether or not he favored increased taxes, that he replied that he favored a revenue-neutral decrease of the tax RATE, and an increase in the number of items, groups, and individuals taxed.

Now, as to this NEW question, yes, what he has proposed does increase the NUMBER of individuals/groups taxed... but still, as before, not the amount of taxes.

Cities, CommonWealths, States, and subdivisions of States (e.g. Counties & Townships) have to have balanced budgets.  If they collect so much tax that they are unable to spend it all, they have a problem.  Florida had such a problem a few years ago.  Fortunately, we have hard-working politicians in Tallahassee who were able to solve the problem right away.
Logged

Stumpy

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 996
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2002, 06:29:26 pm »


I thought it was pretty clear

Zack,
Well, it seemed like Joe sort of said he favored adding to taxes, then sort of denied it, then sort of said it.

You repeatedly state that I propose increasing taxes on some groups.
No, it is YOU who, in spite of your idealistic dream, wish to keep lower taxes for favored groups and screw the rest of us.

This looks like a Clintonesque denial. :P

Reaper gave a clear statement and I respect that. Why can’t Joe?

If he favors adding taxes, let him plainly say so. If not, let him plainly say so.
Logged
Libertarianitis - A disease where one is incapable of doing anything other than debate. The sufferer is rendered totally incapable of being constructive and constantly marginalizes him or herself by displays of extreme negativity, bitterness and intransigence.

Cliff

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
  • What are you looking at?
    • Unlimited Freedom of Speech
Re:Tax exempt status in the Free State
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2002, 07:11:09 pm »

Hey, I thought we were discussing taxation and tax exempt status in regards to the Free State Project. I simply pointed out that taxation itself violates the prime directive of libertarianism.

This discussion seems to have devolved into an argument about the present tax 'status quo'. I think we pretty much all agree we don't want THAT system in the FSP. I'm sure Joe doesn't either. He's caught up in the evil, convoluted system just like we all are - he's just a little closer to the actual machinery than most of the rest of us. It's hypnotic the way the gears go round and round ....

Joe, I really don't mean to be hard on you. I've rarely met a person I didn't like. But I think you lost the battle when you whined about 'slander'. That was just silly.
Logged
http://freespeech.org/unlimitedfreedom/

"A free society, in the long run, will only prove as strong as the principles that underly it." - Robert Hawes
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up