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Author Topic: I guess you could call me extreme  (Read 8092 times)

Overlord

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I guess you could call me extreme
« on: November 28, 2003, 02:27:04 am »

Is anarcho-capitalism welcome in the FSP?
I'm a total anarcho-capitalist who might tolerate the slightest bit of government.

What do you think? I mean, how extreme will NH be?
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Kyle

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2003, 03:04:55 am »

There are many anarcho-capitalists among FSP members.  I'm sure you'll fit right in.  Here's what the FAQ says:

"Q. Who is welcome to participate?

A. Anyone who can agree to the clause in the Statement of Intent which says that you should support the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of citizens' rights to life, liberty, and property. In essence, this includes everyone who wants to cut the size and scope of government by about two-thirds or more. Put in a positive way, most FSP members support policies such as abolition of all income taxes, elimination of regulatory bureaucracies, repeal of most gun control laws, repeal of most drug prohibition laws, complete free trade, decentralization of government, and widescale privatization. People of this disposition may go by many names: "classical liberals" (not the same as modern liberals at all, but followers of Thomas Jefferson and similar thinkers), libertarians, paleoconservatives, constitutionalists, voluntarists, etc., etc."



Of course, since you believe in no government, you would fall into the category of "maximum role of civil government is the protection of citizens' rights to life, liberty, and property".  There are several anarcho-capitalists on this board.  Herself and Robert are two examples, if I am not mistaken.  I myself am a minarchist.
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LeopardPM

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2003, 09:43:32 pm »

I am a minarchist with Ancap tendencies... could use some clrification on some areas if you feel up to it... Zack Bass is a minarchist also but has a definite problem relation o 'agencies' and how hey would work and not become 'the biggest bully wins'

michael
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Ceol Mhor

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2003, 03:03:38 pm »

I'm an ancap and a fairly longtime member. Noted ancap Claire Wolfe is also a member.

IMO, Overlord, it's our job as ancap to see that the FSP doesn't wimp out upon taking root in NH. :)
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2003, 03:27:30 pm »

I am also ancap, but I am also a realist. I have no intention in letting anybody wimp out here, but I also know that getting as far as we want to go is going to be a long slog with a lot of education (in both directions) and incrementalism to get where we want to go.
I have no intent to march on Concord demanding anarchy now. We need to put together a much more measured plan of one step at a time, focusing our forces on one project at a time to maximize our firepower. Running around in black masks and smashing Starbucks will never win any converts.
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LeopardPM

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2003, 04:20:11 pm »

so, you real anCaps, could you explain the whole 'agency' thing to me and why you think that 'agencies would not devolve into oppressive governments (biggest bully syndrome?
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Ceol Mhor

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2003, 12:44:00 am »

Whaa?  ??? I'm not sure what you're talking about. "Agencies"? Can you elaborate?
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2003, 11:25:02 am »

What he means are Friedman's Private Protection Agencies under Privately Produced Legal Systems.
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LeopardPM

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2003, 04:52:38 pm »

yes, Mike - that is what I am referring to:

I have read Friedman's 'Machinery of Freedom' and agree with alot, BUT, after reading and re-reading the whole protection agency chapters I still don't have a clear concept of a working model... not enough info.

michael
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2003, 07:36:25 pm »

Well, some fictional treatments are Vernor Vinge's novella "The Ungoverned", and Neal Stephenson's tongue in cheek depiction of such a society in "Snow Crash".

As I've said many times before, most things that governments do are essentially monopolies on certain insurance markets. Fire protection, police protection, unemployment protection, poverty protection, retirement protection, flood protection, fraud protection, money protection, invasion protection, etc.

Some of these markets are only partially monopolized. For example, fire departments put out fires and in many areas are publicly owned and operated, but fire insurance is a matter of private enterprise, generally part of your homeowner policy.

History shows that fire departments started off as either a subsidiary of, or a subcontractor to, an insurance company or companies. Fire departments put out your house or barn fire free of charge if you had a policy with that or another insurance company. Fire departments could and did contract to provide services to customers of multiple insurance companies.

If you did not have a policy with a company, you paid cash on the spot when a fire erupted, or else you surrendered a lien on your property, or else you put out the fire yourself.

In the Roman Republic, just around the time it transitioned to empire under Gaius Julius Ceasar, there was a fellow by the name of Crassus. Unlike the other patrician leaders of Rome, he was a self made man. He started off as a contractor for the many construction projects around Rome and on the penninsula. One necessary thing for every construction site was a fire company. Crassus found that his fire companies made money for him when he also contracted with neighboring building owners to provide protection.

He made even more money when individuals WITHOUT protection had fires and needed them put out pronto. The sight of him haggling over payment while patricians homes burned coined a new word that came down to us: Crass, as in crass commercialism. Eventually, so many people owed liens on their property to him, that he became the largest land owner in Rome, and earned his way into the leadership to the point he became one of the three Tribunes.

Ceasar, being a patrician, disliked Crassus as, well, a crass and crude commoner, and disliked what he perceived as the extortionate business practices with which his fire companies operated. Ceasar nationalized fire protection in Roman cities and made it a communal activity that all residents were obligated, under penalty of death, to participate in. This nationalization was helped by the fact that Crassus was killed in a battle in Thrace...

In any event, this is how private fire protection would occur. In a more developed ancap society, you would have an ability to contract for any service an insurance company cared to offer, including things today monopolized by government. In an ancap society, insurance companies would not be able to externalize their costs onto the people like they do now.

One reason this has occured in the modern day is because of capital costs. As you may know, Ben Franklin founded a private fire company through which he sold fire insurance policies. This was not difficult to do in those days, as all you needed was a crew of fellows, a couple wagons with man operated pumps, a water supply, some hose, and lots of buckets. It was not a capital intensive operation.

In the late 19th century, you had two new forces at work:
a) industrial companies and factory towns: factory towns were a common feature in those days, and factory companies imposed fire companies on the communities to protect the factory (for example, the Colt Factory burned over a half dozen times in the 1860's).
b) fire fighting equipment was created to pump more water faster, further, and with more pressure. Run with steam engines or early IC engines, these machines were very expensive to buy. Governments had an advantage in being able to borrow the capital needed at lower interest rates than  private enterprise could obtain. as a result, private fire companies slowly became coopted as publicly owned institutions.

Note that this is dependent upon the governments ability to obtain capital cheaper than individuals or private companies. In an ancap society, such an advantage would not exist, because governments, those that remained, would not have the ability to forcibly confiscate taxes and property from people.

Instead, what youd see are a number of insurance companies that would offer policies to consumers for all manner of personal sovereignty needs. Such companies may or may not have contractors provide the ancillary services needed, or provide them as a subsidiary operation of the corporation.

When a contract holder with one company violates the contract of another customer of the insurance company, the insurance company ajudicates fault, restitution, and penalties. If the crime occurs between contract holders of different companies, then the companies would have an arbitration agency ajudicate the issue and determine fault, restitution, and penalty.
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LeopardPM

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2003, 10:03:05 pm »

Very Good!

actually I should have been more specific in my question:  I understand and believe in agencies (thus my AnCap tendencies), except I am not convinced how it would work in the realm of Courts and Law Enforcement.  since these two agencies (mostly the police) operate with the use of force, how are they prevented from bullying others?

michael
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2003, 06:05:07 pm »

Very Good!

actually I should have been more specific in my question:  I understand and believe in agencies (thus my AnCap tendencies), except I am not convinced how it would work in the realm of Courts and Law Enforcement.  since these two agencies (mostly the police) operate with the use of force, how are they prevented from bullying others?

Market competition, specifically. The cops of one agency could not bully you if you had a policy with another agency, and the cops of your agency could not bully you for fear you would contract with a different agency. Cops in an ancap world don't enforce laws, don't forget. They protect property and people. They are business people. Hassling someone for no reason is not a profit generating enterprise.

Courts would also be a franchise enterprise. You haggle with those you complain against, or who complain against you, as to which franchise to have your case heard at, MacJustice or Court King or Judge Judy's.
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RidleyReport

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2003, 08:09:53 pm »

Overlord wrote:

<<What do you think? I mean, how extreme will NH be?>>

In terms of the amount of individual liberty? More extreme than any other place in the world, I suspect.  That's not saying much, but it should be a better place to be than all the others.   It's already at least halfway there.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2003, 08:18:12 pm by Dada Orwell »
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Overlord

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2003, 09:26:53 pm »

Thanks for the helpful responses. I'm only 17 at this point, so I can't exactly sign up.  If, however, our next president is particularly bad, I will move to NH as soon as I am done with college here in NC.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:I guess you could call me extreme
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2003, 12:40:58 pm »

Thanks for the helpful responses. I'm only 17 at this point, so I can't exactly sign up.  If, however, our next president is particularly bad, I will move to NH as soon as I am done with college here in NC.

Wow, when did you start college?
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