Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: I'm worried about the impression I'm getting  (Read 5479 times)

Sc0ttiej

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 77
  • It's time
Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2003, 05:22:44 pm »

Bill, I was hoping that these forums would answer some of my questions in regards to how this project is going to make the world a better place.  However, all it's seemed to do is raise more questions.  I've never been much interested in economics, but from what I understand, this "Free Market Theory" seems to make a lot of sense, though my "gut" tells me that there's something wrong with the logic of these "neo-libertarians."  I can't put it into words exactly, but it seems there are things that can't and shouldn't be owned by a single entity.  This "commons" you speak of sounds a lot like what I'm feeling.  I'll have to find out more about it before I make a decision (I've bookmarked some of the links you've posted on other threads).  It seems to me that "neo-libertarians" fall into my extremist category.  I can't tell you the number of times I've read that "socialism is evil" on these threads.  Not that I think socialism is good, or right, or works or any view whatsoever but I don't think that its "evil."  "Evil" sounds like fanatisism, but that's just my view.  Also, it doesn't make sense to me that just because we're the first monkeys to walk out of the jungle into "civilization," that we have some kind of "right" to put our names on every piece of matter being held close to this planet.  It seems to me that all our supposed "consciousness" and "free will" does, is give us a responsibility to take care of this earth and create the possibility for the most happiness for the greatest number of beings on this rock (not just smart monkeys).  I don't know what that makes me, but whatever it is, it's just one point of view.  My common sense tells me that we should take the middle path.  Sure we can put a price tag on every spec of dust on this planet, but is that necessary, are we dooming ourselves to an eternity of slavery if we agree as a species that some things belong to everything else (not just smart monkeys)?  I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm not saying that this works into some equation, I'm just saying that maybe our efficiency in most aspects of our life and society can provide us with the flexiblity to have some inefficiency in some other aspects.  
Logged

Kyle

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 328
  • I'm a llama!
Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2003, 05:47:02 pm »

Bill, I was hoping that these forums would answer some of my questions in regards to how this project is going to make the world a better place.  However, all it's seemed to do is raise more questions.  I've never been much interested in economics, but from what I understand, this "Free Market Theory" seems to make a lot of sense, though my "gut" tells me that there's something wrong with the logic of these "neo-libertarians."  I can't put it into words exactly, but it seems there are things that can't and shouldn't be owned by a single entity.  This "commons" you speak of sounds a lot like what I'm feeling.  I'll have to find out more about it before I make a decision (I've bookmarked some of the links you've posted on other threads).  It seems to me that "neo-libertarians" fall into my extremist category.  I can't tell you the number of times I've read that "socialism is evil" on these threads.  Not that I think socialism is good, or right, or works or any view whatsoever but I don't think that its "evil."  "Evil" sounds like fanatisism, but that's just my view.  Also, it doesn't make sense to me that just because we're the first monkeys to walk out of the jungle into "civilization," that we have some kind of "right" to put our names on every piece of matter being held close to this planet.  It seems to me that all our supposed "consciousness" and "free will" does, is give us a responsibility to take care of this earth and create the possibility for the most happiness for the greatest number of beings on this rock (not just smart monkeys).  I don't know what that makes me, but whatever it is, it's just one point of view.  My common sense tells me that we should take the middle path.  Sure we can put a price tag on every spec of dust on this planet, but is that necessary, are we dooming ourselves to an eternity of slavery if we agree as a species that some things belong to everything else (not just smart monkeys)?  I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm not saying that this works into some equation, I'm just saying that maybe our efficiency in most aspects of our life and society can provide us with the flexiblity to have some inefficiency in some other aspects.  

Scottie,
To take the proceeds of a man's labor and give it to a man who has not earned it is evil in many of our eyes.  This is why some of us see it as evil, as well as communism.  If you feel that we should take the middle road between socialism and libertarianism, you are calling for a mixed economy.  A mixed economy is what the United States currently has.  If you're satisfied with the mixed economy that the United States currently has, I fear you would not enjoy the free state, where charity will be private, and government's only purpose will be to prevent people from initating force on one another.
Logged

Karl

  • Guest
Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2003, 09:20:22 am »

Scottie --

I caution you not take too much stock in the stuff written in posts here.  Many of the folks here are not educators, or very good writers in some cases.  Instead, take time as you're able to read one of the various excellent libertarian commentary sites on the web.

The most popular libertarian commentary on the web is LewRockwell.com.  Each morning has new links to freshly written articles, most in the context of real-world current events, all written by excellent writers.  There's no better way to examine how libertarian philosophy relates the to the real world.
Logged

LeopardPM

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2248
Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2003, 09:04:10 am »

Scottie,
This link ain't dead as long as you have something to say - the reason: because you represent something that this forum always lacks, a new mind, one still trying to determine right from wrong, the 'better' way vs. the 'worse' way - if you'll notice, myself and others of various mindsets (yes, most of us are pretty set at this point, we have done are research, talked with others, and come to some well-founded and sometimes wrong conclusions) continue to try to point you in various directions, providing links to other informational sites - we are trying to educate you alnog the lines which each of us believe you should be - BUT notice, you are not being forced at all - this is a great example of how the free market works - BillG promotes his thinking, I promote mine, and you get to decide for YOURSELF!  You have real choices!  You might make 'right' ones, or 'wrong' ones, but, in the end, the 'right' way will win out (at least we all hope so!)

Quote
Also, it doesn't make sense to me that just because we're the first monkeys to walk out of the jungle into "civilization," that we have some kind of "right" to put our names on every piece of matter being held close to this planet.  
you might want to look into 'rights' theory also - I am not up on it much - what I believe is that so-called 'rights' are not universal and are just notions created by humans for their mutual benefit - but what do I know.

Quote
to take care of this earth and create the possibility for the most happiness for the greatest number of beings on this rock


the 'most' happiness for the 'greatest' number of people is called Utilitarian Theory or Utilitarinism.  This 'utility' of action (how 'good' an action is for people) runs pretty deep in all manner of thought: socialist, communist, libertarian, Greens, Georgist, etc) - it does 'sound right' doesn't it?  I use it at times in my own thinking, until I can find a flaw.  Basically, the fundamental flaw in Utilitarianism is: it is simply impossible for one human to set/determine the values or the things that make another person happy - that is something that each of us must do in our own lives.  You might have a particular view of what type of car everyone 'should' be driving because in your mind it IS.  But others might desire spending less money on their TV set to get a more economical or faster or roomier car, see what I mean?  This goes for the environment and everything else: there is NO universal 'perfect' for humans, there is only what individuals deem perfect for themselves, and even that changes daily!  You might think that 80% of all land needs to be forest, while I think 75% should be - who is right? Both!  and by you and me and everyone else participating in the free market the most 'perfect' amount will come to be - it probably won't be what either of us desire, but it will be the most true reflection of what mankind desires in general.  If we would rather have the products that nasty smelly factories produce then we will have a nasty smelly earth.  If we would rather have happy flowers everywhere and clean air, then THAT is what will come about in a free market.

thanks for being here, for all of us, Scottie - it helps us all remember the very same questions and gut feelings we all had/have at one time or another - you are a true blessing!

michael
Logged
nothing to say...

DustinD

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
  • I'm a Porcupine!
Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2003, 11:58:13 pm »

Trust me, I am in it to help fight for freedom, and not necessarily for myself. I am doing this as a matter of principal. It is not worth it to me to move half way across the country, away from friends and family, just so I can do things that I already can now or do not want to do anyway. The government we have now is unconstitutional, tramples the rights of many people, and is too big to keep track of. I am tired of double standards and broken contracts between the governing and the governed. The stories of abuse are endless. Our government has lost its principals and what made it great, it has grown to the point that few would justify it as anything but a necessary evil. I do not want what is bearable, or just uncomfortable, I want what is right.
Logged

Reaper

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1854
  • Atheism cures religious terrorism!
    • The Reaper's Den
Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2003, 01:00:01 pm »

Hey Kyle,

Check this out, will only be there briefly so download it to your hard drive if you want it:

http://209.204.239.229/fdspeech.mp3

Logged
Reaper
Proud member of the FSP's lunatic fringe!

"If we turn from battle because there is little hope of victory, where then would valor be?  Let it ever be the goal that stirs us, not the odds."
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up