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Author Topic: I'm worried about the impression I'm getting  (Read 5492 times)

Sc0ttiej

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I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« on: November 18, 2003, 06:22:19 pm »

So I've read through all the posts in this particular forum (I'm going to check the rest out presently) and there seems to be a common theme. Freedom is what's on the surface but just below is the "Benjamins." I want to believe that this is about giving individuals the freedoms they deserve, which includes the freedom to be greedy, but I'm sensing that greed is the motivating factor for too many of these people. I get the impression that too many of these libertarians would gladly trade shoes with the Bill Gates and the Viacoms of the world and live perfectly happily with the unconstitutionality of the Federal Government if given the opportunity. Money seems to be necessary, unfortunately we as a people haven't evolved enough to be motived for the good of humanity without getting a kick back, but I wonder if the "green" should come in so close a second to "Liberty." To save you the trouble of writing it, I'm not being pessimistic, I'm not saying every libertarian is motivated by greed, nor even most, but it only takes a few to get into powerful positions and ruin things for the rest of us. Isn't that how this Government go so screwed up? People were "liberty minded" 200 odd years ago but look what happened. Some rich businessmen and land owners got to create the government and 200 years later we're talking about moving someplace else where we can be less ruled by this imperialistic government. Sounds kinda familiar, so how do we prevent it from happening again? Or is this all just to plant the seeds for future Viacoms headed by your great great grandkids instead of theirs? Hmmm.... That does sound a little pessimistic doesn't it? Error on the side of caution I suppose. But like I said before, I really want someone to tell me that's not what it's about.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2003, 06:24:59 pm by Sc0ttiej »
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LeopardPM

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2003, 08:10:40 pm »

Hi again Scott!
Sorry, I ain't following you - and I wont type out such a long post as in the other forum (utilities).  Just a quick thing you mention that I couldn't let slip by:

Quote
Money seems to be necessary, unfortunately we as a people haven't evolved enough to be motived for the good of humanity without getting a kick back, but I wonder if the "green" should come in so close a second to "Liberty."

Please explain or state your perception of money, where did it come from, why we have it, what is its function?  then relate that to your above statement...

Then my response will enlighten you as to why you are seeing such a close proximty of money and liberty, and why not only are the two directly related, but they enhance each other AND the supposed 'good of humanity' you allude to.

anxious to hear your response, thank you sir!
michael
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 11:57:15 am by LeopardPM »
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nothing to say...

cathleeninsc

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2003, 08:41:26 am »

It might be appropriate here to look up an old, old post I believe by RobertH. The thread was something about maybe we can achieve liberty but can we keep it?. Someone help me find it. I'm a technoklutz.

Cathleen in SC
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LeopardPM

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2003, 09:04:58 am »

It might be appropriate here to look up an old, old post I believe by RobertH. The thread was something about maybe we can achieve liberty but can we keep it?. Someone help me find it. I'm a technoklutz.

Cathleen in SC

I searched but couldn't find what you are talking about...
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Sc0ttiej

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2003, 11:54:30 am »

Michael, you're really on top of me huh?  And it's scott, not steve (you might be surprised though at how often I'm called that:)).  I figured that you'd go after that statement.  I guess what it comes down to is that I'm not an economist and I'm not a businessperson.  I'm still working out my theories, so there's still a lot of loose ends.  But at the core of my principles lies instinct or common sense.  Those things tell me that just letting a Free Market work things out on its own, isn't going to cut it.  I understand that this is your belief and for you I'm sure that it makes perfect sense, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me of it.  This doesn't mean I want government to handle everything, in fact I think that the less the government does, the better (which is why I'm interested in this project).  Keep in mind however, that my perception is that we are living in a society where the masses are slaves to big business.  I acknowledge that the "Government" is probably to blame, but what's the difference between our "Government" and "Big Business" when the players are the same?  I believe that what it comes down to is that most people are mindless drones (man am I going to catch hell for that, but if you let down the defenses, I think you know it's true) and they are happy being that way.  The problem lies in the fact that drones are easy to control (just turn on your T.V.!!), and where you, Michael, or I, may never think of manipulating anyone, there are those who would jump at the opportunity.  It sounds to me like Free Market Theory relies on the fact that the consumer base is made up of informed, THINKING individuals who care about Liberty more than their own lazy, fat asses.  Sure, you can take 20,000 THINKING individuals and move them to an isolated place and enjoy all the benefits that go with that for decades.  Eventually though, the people will become complacent and UNTHINKING and then we're back to square one.  So I guess I should be asking about how to create a society of THINKING individuals instead of worrying about those who would take advantage of the UNTHINKING.  I hope that makes sense.  :)
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underwater

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2003, 12:25:16 pm »

Quote
It sounds to me like Free Market Theory relies on the fact that the consumer base is made up of informed, THINKING individuals who care about Liberty more than their own lazy, fat asses.  Sure, you can take 20,000 THINKING individuals and move them to an isolated place and enjoy all the benefits that go with that for decades.  Eventually though, the people will become complacent and UNTHINKING and then we're back to square one.  So I guess I should be asking about how to create a society of THINKING individuals instead of worrying about those who would take advantage of the UNTHINKING.  I hope that makes sense.

Sc0ttiej,

Great insight! However, "education" is internally produced. You can have teachers and books but that does not equal education. Education depends on a personal commitment to understanding. We are trying to wake people up. In your other posts you seem to hold out zero hope that people will wake up. Instead, you want to impose your own value system upon them by banning combustion engines and such...

The first thing you need to understand, though, is that we do not live in a capitalist system. Our economy is, at best, a mixed economy. Here are some other posts that I think you should read:
Libertarians definitely believe in economic freedom and that is good. However, I think that the importance of economic freedom lies in self-dependence. If you are not self-dependent then you are a slave:

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in peace. We seek not your council, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our country men."

    -- Samuel Adams

"A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away."

    -- Barry Goldwater
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vermass

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2003, 01:01:03 pm »

  ScOttiej,
      you need to go through this forum intensly you will find ALL KINDS of people and topics. Most of what has been writen here I agree with, some things I do not. Somewhere someone stated we should get rid of statutory rape laws. Their logic was if the child consents it's not rape. Give me a minute while I puke please. I believe most of us would not have sex with a consenting seven year old.
      Most members, have joined because they realize it's too much. Our government is too involved in our daily life. It is, out of controll.
      I am a nurse who works in a nursing home. Most of my residents are on medicaid. You see, I benifit indirectly from the status quo. Get rid of the welfare state and where will that leave the nursing homes? Where will that leave me? I honestly don't know but I'd like to find out. I'm willing to take the chance. I'll get a new job.
      I want to live in a free America or at least a free state! I don't want to: renew my gun permit, my drivers license, my car registrtion, my cars "safety inspection" (I'll have my cars safety inspected when I feel the need, thank you). I don't want to apply for a building permit to build a barn a house or put an addition on said house. I don't want to continue to pay for a government that operates on lies and deception. that barges into peoples homes in search of drugs (how long would drug dealing be so profitable if it were legal? Most of the stuff grows like weeds and is easy to proccess) I don't want to pay for schools that I'd never send MY offspring to. I don't want DSS knocking on my door cause someone saw me smacking my kid that I'm just trying to raise with more morality and self disipline than they themselves have. I don't want billions of my money that's been stolen from me by my government being sent to Africa or any other country. NO NOT ME, I DON'T WANT THE MONEY STOLEN FROM ME IN THE FIRST PLACE. That's not even mentioning the injustices carried out by the EPA, or how about property stolen under the eminant domian laws. A rich government is a dangerous one. Our government has WAY too much money/power and they'll screw you next? There is no private business that even comes close. How many private businesses have their own Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines? How about the police, the FBI and the CIA? BATFE and the Departmnet of Homeland Security?
    Yes, we have many members who wish to operate a business in a true free-market but there is nothing wrong with that. We are against using force or fraud. The only acceptable use of force being self defence. A fraudulent business would not exist long in a free society. A fraudulent and forcefull government now exist in America. In a small-government society business does not have the liesure of a big government to protect them. They must produce or shut down.
     I could go on and on but I've got to get to work. This year I'm going to pay more in taxes than I earned the first year I became a nurse (13 years ago).
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Sc0ttiej

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2003, 04:15:26 pm »

vermass, I agree with you completely.  And Underwater, Thanks for the links, I've already started reading them :)  I admit that one of my greatest faults is expecting that others should think the same way I do.  It's a hard thing getting past the "self."  One thing that seems to set my mind at ease is:  If we had a true Free Market of ideals then things like ethics, morals, responsibility, honor and enviromentalism, might win out over the antithesis of all that I believe in, and if they don't, then immorality, irresponsiblity, dishonor and a dead planet are what the human race wants and deserves.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 04:16:27 pm by Sc0ttiej »
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Kyle

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2003, 06:40:14 pm »

Scottie, let me share with you a passage from Atlas Shrugged, a book by Ayn Rand.  Several of the main characters are at a party when someone suggests that money is the root of all evil.



Rearden heard Bertram Scudder, outside the group, say to a girl who made some sound of indignation, "Don't let him disturb you. You know, money is the root of all evil – and he's the typical product of money."

      Rearden did not think that Francisco could have heard it, but he saw Francisco turning to them with a gravely courteous smile.

      "So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Aconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

      "When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor – your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?

      "Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions – and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

      "But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made – before it can be looted or mooched – made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.

      "To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss – the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery – that you must offer them values, not wounds – that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade – with reason, not force, as their final arbiter – it is the best product that wins, the best performance, then man of best judgment and highest ability – and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

      "But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality – the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.
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Kyle

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2003, 06:42:07 pm »

It had to be cut into three pieces because the forum wouldn't let me paste the whole thing.  Here's the next piece.  Then I'll post the remainder.



      "Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants; money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

      "Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth – the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve that mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

      "Money is your means of survival. The verdict which you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

      "Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

      "Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is the loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money – and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

      "Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

      "Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another – their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

      "But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride, or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich – will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt – and of his life, as he deserves.

      "Then you will see the rise of the double standard – the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money – the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law – men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims – then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

      "Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion – when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing – when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors – when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you – when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice – you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

      "Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it becomes, marked: 'Account overdrawn.'
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Kyle

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2003, 06:42:28 pm »

      "When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are.

      "You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you're damning its life-blood – money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves – slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers – as industrialists.

      "To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money – and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being – the self-made man – the American industrialist.

      "If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose – because it contains all the others – the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money'. No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity – to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted, or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

      "Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide – as, I think, he will.

      "Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns – or dollars. Take your choice – there is no other – and your time is running out."
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LeopardPM

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2003, 07:59:39 am »

Scott,
I apologize for the 'steve' thing - I went back and changed my post to reflect your true name - I should have been paying more attention.

Quote
But at the core of my principles lies instinct or common sense.
as are mine and most folks - nothing wrong with shooting from the gut sir - but it never hurts to through the mind into the mix, at least every once and awhile.  For instance, re:welfare - my first 'gut' instinct on this subject when I was younger was "Geez, of course we need to provide (through the government) SOME sort of minimal support, I mean, these are people!" - its a good, honest, caring sentiment.  But once my mind could understand the 'hidden' consequences like dependency and dis-incentive that welfare creates, my gut and common sense got a jolt...

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Keep in mind however, that my perception is that we are living in a society where the masses are slaves to big business.  
I don't see it, care to explain how you arrive at this conclusion?

Quote
I acknowledge that the "Government" is probably to blame, but what's the difference between our "Government" and "Big Business" when the players are the same?
good point and it shows how your gut can detect 'something' being wrong without being able to correctly identifying it.

Quote
I believe that what it comes down to is that most people are mindless drones (man am I going to catch hell for that, but if you let down the defenses, I think you know it's true) and they are happy being that way.  The problem lies in the fact that drones are easy to control (just turn on your T.V.!!)
you won't catch hell from me!  there is much truth to this, but more importantly is WHY or HOW did the masses get into tat state of being drones - were they born that way or were they taught?

Quote
It sounds to me like Free Market Theory relies on the fact that the consumer base is made up of informed, THINKING individuals who care about Liberty more than their own lazy, fat asses.
well, almost right - the only liberty required in the free market if one of free will (even the will to be lazy and fat) in each and every transaction.  You are correct about the informed part too... but that is related to my above post.  In addition, you have the CHOICE of being informed or not, here is the way it goes - IF the government did not take on the role of 'protector, mother, father' people would, once again, have to take the natural responsibility for their own lives - this includes being informed.  If someone choses to not discover the repricussions of not eating a proper diet, it is wrong to force me to pay for a governmental institution that would attempt to do this for them.  They have a choice over their lives and how they live it.  If we give people back their natural responsibility to seek things and care for things according to their own desires, then the overall result will be a better, more informed, healthier society - this is true, because self-interest is human nature.  Do you want to eat diseased meat?  Do you think that others do?  This is called a market 'demand' and yes, it will be catered to by organizations and businesses who desire to profit.  They are MUCH more motivated to provide exactly the level of service you desire than some governmental agency... is this obvious?

So, you said you were neither economist or businessman - are you an employee or a student?


michael
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Kelton Baker

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2003, 11:16:52 am »

It might be appropriate here to look up an old, old post I believe by RobertH. The thread was something about maybe we can achieve liberty but can we keep it?. Someone help me find it. I'm a technoklutz.


Here's RobertH's most recent rendition of that thread/article:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=26;action=display;threadid=3390

To those of you who may wonder about Robert Hawes,  he was an ardent Western state supporter and opted-out of New Hampshire.  But though he has no plans of moving to New Hampshire, he still holds out lots of hope for the FSP and our ambitions.  He was involved in several leadership decisions even after the vote as a member of the Organizers group.
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Give me some men who are stout-hearted men Who will fight for the right they adore. Start me with ten, who are stout-hearted men And I'll soon give you ten thousand more...--O. Hammerstein

Sc0ttiej

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2003, 12:44:22 pm »

Well Mike, I'm an employee right now (though I'm still in a student mindset).  I ofcoarse didn't mean slave in the literal sense, it's my opinion that the masses are being controlled, or rather "directed" toward consumtion.  The way that advertising permeates everything we see or hear in a given day disgusts me.  I realize that the masses make the choice to watch T.V. or listen to the radio, but children are the victims.  Sure, public schools play a major role in brainwashing our kids and leaving them suseptable to "advertising" but many private schools have the same problem.  I can't exactly get my thoughts straight right now (I'm at work), but I think you can understand what I'm trying to say.  My "gut" tells me that there's something wrong with the way advertising creates the image that the vast majority of American teens and 20 somethings conform to.  People don't seems to question whether this out of control consumption is the solution to all our problems.  They just buy, and buy, and buy.  It just seems illogical to consume without worrying about the consequences of your actions.  Yes, I'm expecting others to see things as I do, but so what?  Isn't that what all of you are doing?  Ok, this is a weak argument, you shouldn't even reply, this thread is about dead.  However, my initial question never seemed to be answered.  
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Karl

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Re:I'm worried about the impression I'm getting
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2003, 01:16:45 pm »

...They just buy, and buy, and buy.  It just seems illogical to consume without worrying about the consequences of your actions...

Scottie, why do these people do this?  I'm convinced it is largely because "nanny" government has robbed these individuals of their freedom to choose otherwise.
  • Politicians implore "consumers" to go and buy things to "help the economy."
  • The Federal Reserve Bank expands the money supply, essentially taxing savers and redistributing wealth to spenders (debtors).
  • The Social Security Administration promises a retirement fund to every American, regardless of how diligent they are in saving for retirement.  I get a "Benefits Summary" every so often in the mail promising it to me.
  • Welfare statists tell us not to worry about societal ills, for the solution is a just a slight tax hike away!  Let the government take care of it, so we can get on with our shopping.
The message is all the same -- the government is "directing" people to "buy, buy, buy," even encouraging people to to go into debt in order to do so, and telling them not to worry about the consequences.  Big Government will take care of you, they tell us.

Members of the Free State Project and other liberty-lovers aim to help change that culture to one of personal responsibility.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2003, 01:21:27 pm by Karl Beisel »
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