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Author Topic: Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?  (Read 30569 times)

BillG

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2003, 11:37:37 am »

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We all have inalienable, individual rights to the commons.

Why?

     If this is your fundemental argument then please explain it.

self-ownership...

right to life...thus freedom of action/movement in 3-D space...therefore freedom to interact with the natural world (everything outside of humans & what they create - called the "commons") inorder to continue to live (such as breath the air)...and finally in mixing labor with the natural world we retain private property ownership over what is created with the fruits of our labor.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 11:53:33 am by BillG (not Gates) »
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<Patrick>

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2003, 02:45:56 am »

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We all have inalienable, individual rights to the commons

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self-ownership...

right to life...thus freedom of action/movement in 3-D space...therefore freedom to interact with the natural world (everything outside of humans & what they create - called the "commons") in order to continue to live (such as breath the air)...and finally in mixing labor with the natural world we retain private property ownership over what is created with the fruits of our labor.

     It is not my responsibility to provide land to every person on the planet just because they are born, and they need it to live. If I found a plot of land first--it’s mine. If others want use of it, I was there first, so they had better negotiate with me about it on my terms.
     
     If someone tells me that I “rightfully owe” them some kind of “scarcity rent”  for using part of their "commons" they’re going to have to get it from me by force.

     Whether I mixed my labor with a plot of land or not, if I got there first I’m claiming it as my own.

Nobody has a “right to food.”
Or a “right to healthcare.”
Or a “right to a job.”
Or a “right to land.”
Or a “right to scarcity rent.”


     What they do have is the right to purchase these things on a free market from those who choose to sell them.

     I don't think I "rightfully owe" anyone one cent just because I occupy a plot of land, and they don't.
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
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BillG

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2003, 10:03:16 am »

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It is not my responsibility to provide land to every person on the planet just because they are born, and they need it to live

not provide ownership for all but yes access to it.

agreed though...individual ownership of land is the most efficient system where you have the freedom to do what you want with your land.

but unless the economic scarcity rent (that is not created by the landowner) is returned to the rightful owners you have a system where the "entitled" have a perpetual claim on the fruits of the labor of the landless where they are "forced" to pay for no service rendered.

the landowner did not "produce" the land or the economic scarcity rent that naturally attaches to a location when there is no longer enough and as good lands for people to access.

This is direct violation of the basic tenet of libertarianism - self-ownership...or a perfect system of slavery!

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If someone tells me that I “rightfully owe” them some kind of “scarcity rent”  for using part of their "commons" they’re going to have to get it from me by force

fine...but you can't claim this as anything other than slavery!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2003, 10:04:46 am by BillG (not Gates) »
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<Patrick>

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2003, 03:35:53 am »

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Not provide ownership for all but yes access to it.

     They already have access to it. They can buy it from someone willing to sell it.

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but unless the economic scarcity rent (that is not created by the landowner) is returned to the rightful owners you have a system where the "entitled" have a perpetual claim on the fruits of the labor of the landless where they are "forced" to pay for no service rendered.

     Nobody "rightfuly owns" a share of my wealth just because I occupy land and they don't.

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the landowner did not "produce" the land or the economic scarcity rent that naturally attaches to a location when there is no longer enough and as good lands for people to access.


     It does not matter if I produced it or not. If I got there first it's mine. I own it free and clear.



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fine...but you can't claim this as anything other than slavery!

             
Slavery? All I ask is to be left alone.


     You're telling me that because I own land and others don't I owe all of mankind protection money which the use of force is justified to collect. And your saying that the need of others to have access to land gives them the right to impose a tax on me.

   
I want to be left alone. You want to rob me by force.

             
Who's the advocate of slavery here?

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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

Garthnak

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2003, 03:13:10 pm »

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the landowner did not "produce" the land or the economic scarcity rent that naturally attaches to a location when there is no longer enough and as good lands for people to access.


     It does not matter if I produced it or not. If I got there first it's mine. I own it free and clear.

Can you explain to me your precise philosophical and moral justification for your "I saw it first!" ethics?  Capitalism is based on earnings.  Merely seeing something before anyone else does not mean you have "earned" it.  Explain to me why you feel you have a rightful sole claim to something you have not earned.
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Kyle

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2003, 03:36:10 pm »

This sounds dangerously like an argument for abolition of property rights.  We all know where that road leads.
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BillG

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2003, 03:58:29 pm »

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They already have access to it. They can buy it from someone willing to sell it.

since we have a right to life, we have to *be* somewhere, so renting is not a voluntary excercise if you can't purchase and buying includes paying for the capitalized economic scarcity rent that went uncollected from the prior owner who did not produce the value...

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Nobody "rightfuly owns" a share of my wealth just because I occupy land and they don't.

First of all - what gives you the "right" to something that you did not create with your labor and secondly to make a claim on the fruit's of the labor of the buyer or renter?

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 You're telling me that because I own land and others don't I owe all of mankind protection money which the use of force is justified to collect. And your saying that the need of others to have access to land gives them the right to impose a tax on me.
 
I want to be left alone. You want to rob me by force.

Once again, what gives you the right to perpetual claims on the fruits of the landless's labor?

the economic scarcity rent created by others and returned to them does not come out of the fruits of your labor because you neither produced the land of the generated value that naturally attaches to a location under scarcity conditions.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2003, 03:59:42 pm by BillG (not Gates) »
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Kyle

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2003, 04:45:57 pm »

If a right to life naturally implies a right to property, wouldn't it also imply a right to food?  A right to water?  A right to live whether you have a job or not?
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<Patrick>

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2003, 05:35:24 pm »

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Can you explain to me your precise philosophical and moral justification for your "I saw it first!" ethics?  Capitalism is based on earnings.  Merely seeing something before anyone else does not mean you have "earned" it.  Explain to me why you feel you have a rightful sole claim to something you have not earned.

     Here is an example from history.

     The first Vikings to discover Iceland, according to their common law, became the owners of the land because they discovered first.

     I have two points to make in regard to this:

     First, the early explorers who discovered and settled uninhabited Iceland  earned it. The very act of exploration and discovery requires effort. In the case of the Viking explorers, they undertook perilous voyages to discover the lands that they did and many did not come back alive.

     Second, why in the world should they listen to anyone who tells them to share their discovery with the rest of mankind, or to pay the rest of mankind some kind of "rent"? That's collectivism. What's in it for the discoverers? They got there first so they set the terms, and should rightfully reject anyone's claim to the contrary.

     The precise philosophical and moral basis for my view is individualism.  
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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
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http://capitalism.org

<Patrick>

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2003, 06:18:12 pm »

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since we have a right to life, we have to *be* somewhere, so renting is not a voluntary excercise if you can't purchase and buying includes paying for the capitalized economic scarcity rent that went uncollected from the prior owner who did not produce the value...

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If a right to life naturally implies a right to property, wouldn't it also imply a right to food?  A right to water?  A right to live whether you have a job or not?

The second quote answers the first.

A need is not an intitlement to the property of others.

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First of all - what gives you the "right" to something that you did not create with your labor and secondly to make a claim on the fruit's of the labor of the buyer or renter?

     I have already stated several times that the very act of discovering something preexisting in nature for the first time is a value that is produced and that it requires effort.

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the economic scarcity rent created by others and returned to them does not come out of the fruits of your labor

     Your whole system is based on this concept of "scarcity rent," which is in turn based on your idea that all of mankind "commonly" owns all the land on earth, because land is a basic need of life.

     But I do not recognize any collective "rights," nor do I recognize anyone's need as a valid claim on my property.

     And I do not recognize anyone's "right" to tax me on what I found, inherited, or purchased first.



 

     


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"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone’s right to one minute of my life.  Nor to any part of my energy.  Nor to any achievement of mine… I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for others."
-Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org
http://capitalism.org

Garthnak

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2003, 06:44:02 pm »

    The first Vikings to discover Iceland, according to their common law, became the owners of the land because they discovered first.

     I have two points to make in regard to this:

     First, the early explorers who discovered and settled uninhabited Iceland  earned it. The very act of exploration and discovery requires effort. In the case of the Viking explorers, they undertook perilous voyages to discover the lands that they did and many did not come back alive.
And what if someone totally seperately comes from another land (say, for example, a tribe from Africa who mirculously created seafaring ships), undertakes the perilous voyage to Iceland and "discovers" it themselves.  Have they also not "earned" the same right to that land?  You're "I got here first" theory still doesn't seem to show why 'first discovery' implies _ownership_.
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Second, why in the world should they listen to anyone who tells them to share their discovery with the rest of mankind, or to pay the rest of mankind some kind of "rent"? That's collectivism. What's in it for the discoverers? They got there first so they set the terms, and should rightfully reject anyone's claim to the contrary.
Collectivism is revoking the product of a man's labor.  By denying anyone ELSE who makes the same discovery on their own the right to the same land, you are advocating the total control merely by first labor, not by later labor.  If this was applied to capitalism, then the first person to every build a building would be the ONLY one EVER allowed to build ANY buildings ever again, throughout the history of the society.  This goes for the wheel, grown food, bow and arrow, and even the discovery of fire.

Thus, I still don't see why "first discovery" implies ownership.  Land is more or less like an idea - it existed before us, we only have to discover it, and by that discovery we enable anyone who observes that discovery to duplicate it.  Thus there has to be some way to allow all people capable of the same application of an idea to utilize it.  As far as I can tell, a fairly apportioned rent is the only way to resolve this equitably.  Is it the greatest thing in the world?  No.  But I think it's the only way to practically apply fair usage of a (realistically) extremely limited resource.
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The precise philosophical and moral basis for my view is individualism.
The precise philosophical and moral basis for your view is "I saw it first!  Mine!"  That's kindergarten ethics.
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Kyle

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2003, 07:37:30 pm »

Garthnak,
I'm not sure seeing it first applies any longer.  Few, if any of us acquired the land we own by virtue of seeing it first.  These days, our land is purchased by our money, which is the product of our labors.
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BillG

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2003, 08:51:27 pm »

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These days, our land is purchased by our money, which is the product of our labors.

Yes, but the major cost of the land that you purchased is just capitalized "economic scarcity rent" that is not created by the landowner's labor.

and while you are saving your money to buy the land your wage's are being taxed via the "economic scarcity rent" that goes to your landowner who has not produced the land or the site value...
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Kyle

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2003, 09:04:41 pm »

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These days, our land is purchased by our money, which is the product of our labors.

Yes, but the major cost of the land that you purchased is just capitalized "economic scarcity rent" that is not created by the landowner's labor.

and while you are saving your money to buy the land your wage's are being taxed via the "economic scarcity rent" that goes to your landowner who has not produced the land or the site value...
If I make a good stock investment and the value goes up allowing me to sell high, no "labor" of my own has caused it to increase, but the profit is still mine.
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BillG

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Re:Why Privatize Utilites? Shouldn't the People Own Them?
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2003, 09:23:42 pm »

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These days, our land is purchased by our money, which is the product of our labors.

Yes, but the major cost of the land that you purchased is just capitalized "economic scarcity rent" that is not created by the landowner's labor.

and while you are saving your money to buy the land your wage's are being taxed via the "economic scarcity rent" that goes to your landowner who has not produced the land or the site value...
If I make a good stock investment and the value goes up allowing me to sell high, no "labor" of my own has caused it to increase, but the profit is still mine.

Yes but the company you are investing in was produced by human labor. The land is not...
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