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Author Topic: Drugs in the FSP  (Read 45271 times)

The Plano Texan

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Drugs in the FSP
« on: October 07, 2003, 04:40:16 pm »

First I want to thank Jason Sorens for his response to my e-mail regarding several question I had which were not listed or not elaborated on in the FAQ (which I actually read).  I'm not a member yet, but I don't expect to be "scared off" too quickly, either.  ;)

One of the questions I asked Jason was regarding drugs in the FSP.  His response and some of what I have read in other posts lead me to another question, however.  If someone wishes to engage in drug use, so be it provided their use does not interfere with someone else's preference to the contrary.  Currently, we have laws against drinking and driving.  If drugs are legalized in the FSP, will other laws restricting their use be enacted?

I also have a quick comment to the string "My 5 Questions" in regards to the separation of church and state, particularly the comment of prayer in schools.  If the education system is totally privatized and I want my children to pray in school, I take them to the New Hampshire Christian Academy.  If I don't agree with prayer in school, I take them to the Darwinian School of Maths and Sciences in which case it's a moot point, correct?
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Stumpy

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2003, 04:56:23 pm »

One of the questions I asked Jason was regarding drugs in the FSP.  His response and some of what I have read in other posts lead me to another question, however.  If someone wishes to engage in drug use, so be it provided their use does not interfere with someone else's preference to the contrary.  Currently, we have laws against drinking and driving.  If drugs are legalized in the FSP, will other laws restricting their use be enacted?

If you asking if the same laws applying to alcohol (driving under the influence, prohibited sales to minors, etc.) will apply to drugs, the answer would be, almost assuredly yes.


Quote
I also have a quick comment to the string "My 5 Questions" in regards to the separation of church and state, particularly the comment of prayer in schools.  If the education system is totally privatized and I want my children to pray in school, I take them to the New Hampshire Christian Academy.  If I don't agree with prayer in school, I take them to the Darwinian School of Maths and Sciences in which case it's a moot point, correct?

Yep. It’s amazing how freedom will take care of these nagging problems.

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Dalamar49

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2003, 05:58:19 pm »

Welcome, Plano Texan to our happy little organization!

If growth continues like this though it won't be to long before I have to sopt saying "little."  :)

About drugs: I'm sure the same laws that apply to alcohol today will also apply to drugs. No using drugs and driving. No public intoxication, etc.
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atr

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2003, 06:29:01 pm »


About drugs: I'm sure the same laws that apply to alcohol today will also apply to drugs. No using drugs and driving. No public intoxication, etc.


I don't see how public intoxication harms other people. I just drank a beer with dinner this evening, and was thinking how nice it will be when drinking in public (even to excess) is 100% legal.
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The Plano Texan

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2003, 07:21:18 pm »

Quote
I don't see how public intoxication harms other people. I just drank a beer with dinner this evening, and was thinking how nice it will be when drinking in public (even to excess) is 100% legal.

Public intoxication for you, even to excess, may not be harmful to others.  Too many people exist outside that mold, though, for the potential problems to be ignored.  If you can drink to excess and handle your liquor in public, more power to you.  If you're drunk to the point of being incapacitated and start trying to drive yourself home, there is a problem.  If you become violent when you're drunk and start fights over imagined incidents, you don't need to be drinking to excess in public.  If you get happy when you're drunk and the world is your best friend, good for you.  I'll happily give you a ride home as long you don't leave a mess in the back seat!
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RhythmStar

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2003, 07:30:50 pm »

FWIW, in all cases of intoxication, the actual harm to others comes not from intoxication itself, but some other act.  I think these acts ought to be the crimes, not the harmless (to others) intoxication.  

Also, I see no reason not to tack extra penalties on when crimes are committed while under the influence.  My reasoning is simple -- with freedom comes responsibility.   The freedom to get wasted on the drug of your choice should carry with it the responsibility to make sure that you are not endangering others in the process.  To fail in that responsiblity I think is criminal negligence.

RS
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Dalamar49

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2003, 08:22:07 pm »


I don't see how public intoxication harms other people. I just drank a beer with dinner this evening, and was thinking how nice it will be when drinking in public (even to excess) is 100% legal.

Well although my anarcho-capitalist side is pushing me to accept public intoxication I still find myself wary of allowing it. Yes, I agree that drinking a beer or smoking a cigarette/joint in public does no one harm, but I am afraid to have people shooting heroine or snorting cocaine within the view of children and adults who may be offended by such.

On private property however, which includes businesses, people can do whatever the owner allows. I have no problem with heroine users shooting up in a club that allows it and I also have no problem with addicts snorting lines of coke....as long as its in their own home or in a business that allows it.

This gets down to the nitty-gritty. What activities should be allowed in public? If we go purely Libertarian then I should be able to have a fat orgy in public in front of children....while if we go with the more pragmatic approach some behavior must be curtailed if we are to maintain some semblance of order within the state.

Thankfully, I think such debates won't happen until we already lay the foundation of liberty in the FreeState. Arguements over what should be allowed in public won't occur until we re-acquire our rights to do as we want within our own homes and businesses.....which should take many-a-year.
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RidleyReport

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2003, 09:52:44 pm »

Plano:

Welcome to the forum.  We have a DFW porcupine group up and running which meets every month.  Ongoing details regarding meetings are toward the end of the thread that starts at

this link

Look forward to seeing you at the next one, Oct. 18!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2003, 09:53:34 pm by Dada Orwell »
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atr

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2003, 10:14:56 pm »

Quote
I don't see how public intoxication harms other people. I just drank a beer with dinner this evening, and was thinking how nice it will be when drinking in public (even to excess) is 100% legal.

Public intoxication for you, even to excess, may not be harmful to others.  Too many people exist outside that mold, though, for the potential problems to be ignored.  If you can drink to excess and handle your liquor in public, more power to you.  If you're drunk to the point of being incapacitated and start trying to drive yourself home, there is a problem.  If you become violent when you're drunk and start fights over imagined incidents, you don't need to be drinking to excess in public.  If you get happy when you're drunk and the world is your best friend, good for you.  I'll happily give you a ride home as long you don't leave a mess in the back seat!

In a free society, I get to assess for myself whether my drinking in public will harm other people. If I get trashed and commit a crime (e.g. assualt, vandalism, littering, etc.), I should be punished for that crime. But drinking (even excessively) does not harm other people, and I shouldn't be punished for it.

RhythmStar has articulated the issue well:

"FWIW, in all cases of intoxication, the actual harm to others comes not from intoxication itself, but some other act.  I think these acts ought to be the crimes, not the harmless (to others) intoxication."

This is analogous to the recent Federal court opinion upholding the legality of file-sharing programs. Using the program is not criminal--it's how you use it. E.g. you don't outlaw cars just because some people use them in ways that harm other people. You shouldn't outlaw behaviors that have a tendency to harm other people--you should outlaw behaviors that do harm other people.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2003, 10:22:19 pm by atr »
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atr

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2003, 10:21:03 pm »


I don't see how public intoxication harms other people. I just drank a beer with dinner this evening, and was thinking how nice it will be when drinking in public (even to excess) is 100% legal.

Well although my anarcho-capitalist side is pushing me to accept public intoxication I still find myself wary of allowing it. Yes, I agree that drinking a beer or smoking a cigarette/joint in public does no one harm, but I am afraid to have people shooting heroine or snorting cocaine within the view of children and adults who may be offended by such.

We should outlaw behaviors for being offensive?

Liberty should be restrained only to prevent harm (e.g. force/fraud) being done to others, not to prevent people from being offended.

Imagine a world where it was justified to outlaw something for being offensive. I don't think the FSP would be legal.
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kater

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2003, 10:29:12 pm »

The essential problem with Dalamar49's perspective is summed up in this question: "What activities should be allowed in public?"  The underlying assumption is (I deeply hope) completely contrary to the nature of FSP.  We are trying to leave the regulatory state behind, in so far as such a thing can be possible, and create a situation in which we no longer have to ask for permission to commit acts that do not harm others.

As for the assumption that such debates are premature ("I think such debates won't happen until we already lay the foundation of liberty in the FreeState"), that seems to be the essence of putting the cart before the horse.  If we don't know what we're moving for, what are we doing here?
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kater

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2003, 10:33:58 pm »

I should add that even a rudimentary understanding of the American justice system makes a sham of preemptive punishment--that is, how can a structure based on assumed innocence convict citizens for being in a state in which they migh commit a crime?
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The Plano Texan

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2003, 10:43:06 pm »

Quote
In a free society, I get to assess for myself whether my drinking in public will harm other people. If I get trashed and commit a crime (e.g. assualt, vandalism, littering, etc.), I should be punished for that crime. But drinking (even excessively) does not harm other people, and I shouldn't be punished for it.

Touche' and I should have responded with my agreement for the most part when RhythmStar said much the same thing.  However, if I stumble into the doorjamb while leaving a bar with my keys in my hand, can't walk a straight line from the door to the car and have to lean on everything in between, I am obviously not capable of assessing whether or not my drinking will harm someone else regardless of my own opinion.  Maybe if I make it home, no harm/no foul.  Maybe you're walking down the sidewalk and I'm too drunk to even notice I jumped the curb and you're a little wet spot on the cement now.  Granted, the piece of paper a law is printed on can't protect you.  Sometimes, it makes the other person think a little before acting if consequences are outlined before the incident.
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The Plano Texan

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2003, 10:54:36 pm »

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Liberty should be restrained only to prevent harm (e.g. force/fraud) being done to others, not to prevent people from being offended.

So where do your liberties stop and mine begin?  Are you insinuating that I could take my six-year-old to the grocery store and witness a "fat orgy" on the corner?  If such is the case, count me out.  If I have to live in fear not of a criminal from which I can protect myself trying to rob me but of a drunk driving down the road unwittingly about to kill my family, count me out.  If the idea of the FSP as that anyone can get away with anything, anywhere, at anytime so long as it doesn't actually hurt someone else, count me out.
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kater

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2003, 06:34:12 am »

Quote
However, if I stumble into the doorjamb while leaving a bar with my keys in my hand, can't walk a straight line from the door to the car and have to lean on everything in between, I am obviously not capable of assessing whether or not my drinking will harm someone else

I would agree that judgment can be severely impaired, but haven't you ever heard the phrase, "I'm too drunk to drive."  It's not like self-assessment takes a nosedive out the window.  

On a related note, I'm curious as to the comfort you (and others) appear to have with looking to law (and government) to guarantee your safety.  Such a guarantee is inherently impossible to uphold, and requires the trading in of our most basic rights and responsibilities.  Just as paternalistic entitlement programs absolve citizens of the responsibility of taking care of themselves (see some of Doug Besharov's work, notably "We're Feeding the Poor As If They're Starving"), doesn't a desire for state protection signal an abandonment of my responsibility for myself?
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