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Author Topic: Drugs in the FSP  (Read 45797 times)

MrVoluntarist

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #90 on: October 11, 2003, 03:51:44 pm »

Hey!  Look at me!  I can play word games with "harm" to act like I'm smarter than libertarians!  I'm so clever!

I am a libertarian.

I think you must have misunderstood me.

That wasn't in reference to you.  I was addressing the mentality of the people that were posting with that attitude, which, if you're a libertarian, wasn't you.  Sorry for not making that clear.
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DustinD

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #91 on: October 29, 2003, 02:30:13 pm »

Quote
My choice is not to have to see an orgy taking place on a street corner.  ...  If your choice is to have an orgy on a street corner, you have already violated my right to choose not to see it whether I'm forced to watch or not.  ...

I would hate to see an orgy as much as anyone, but lets see the flaw in your argument.
What if I choose not see SUVs, women who are not covered head to toe in black cloth, firearms, people eating, or anything else? I can give examples of people who do not want to see any of the above. Your not wanting to see something does not trump their right to do it. What if someone did not want to see you, what if they did not want to see your home destroy the landscape that used to be there?

The only difference is there is a super majority that does not like to see orgies.
I would suggest giving cities limited ability to control the commons in matters that do not harm others, provided they can get a 95% super majority of voters to agree, only about two thirds would have to vote on the issue, but no more than 5% of the people who vote can vote against it.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2003, 02:53:23 pm by DustinD »
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ProteusLizz

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2003, 09:08:25 am »

we went from drugs being leglized to orgies to drunk driving to guns and everywhere else :::shaking head:::  I am concerned about the legalization of drugs as well.....not about the law end but the money end.  Seeing that, in the big picture, the FEDERAL government decides what is and is not legal to transport, even if u legalize drugs on a state, county or city level the price will not go down.

Not that I have specific numbers, I can only base my opinion on what I have personally experienced.......a sizable percentage of persons using drugs (soft or hard) have a hard time being responsible citizens.  Meaning.....paying their utilities, rent, bills becomes harder because what is more important to them??  The high or their responsibility?  When they come down from that high and realize they need money, where are they going to get it from??  Seeing that their income comes from a job where they need to show up sober but their addiction has superceded that.   Higher crime rates perhaps? Crack alleys perhaps where they live in abandoned buildings?  

I am new to this forum and Libetarianism (sp) but have lived my life by the "majority" of these ideals.  LESS government involvement and MORE people involvement.  Now if the law was to say you can grow what you want and use it for yourself....GREAT!!!  But how many actaully have the knack for being a horticulturist??? :)  Now this leads to growers and suppliers....which again leads back to MONEY.  What do you do with those who use but do not have the means to maintain their use???  Do we have a public field for them to take as they want??  We will have to deal with their addiction as we do now??  

There are no easy answers.........and some of the postings I have seen lean more to a Seperatists view than a Libetatian one.  The idea that you live in a community but can do whatever you please is NOT feasible.  Responsibility, Respect and Organization are not only needed but expected if you plan to live together.  But that is just how I see it :)  Peace
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Reaper

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2003, 10:24:14 am »

The VAST majority of drug users are very functional people.  They work, pay taxes, support themselves and their families and you probably know more than a few and just aren't even aware of their "hobby".

You should read through "Saying Yes: In Defense of Drug Use" by Jacob Sullum.
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Reaper
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ProteusLizz

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2003, 05:52:57 pm »

The VAST majority of drug users are very functional people.  They work, pay taxes, support themselves and their families and you probably know more than a few and just aren't even aware of their "hobby".

You should read through "Saying Yes: In Defense of Drug Use" by Jacob Sullum.
OK....the functional druggies are NOT the ones you need to concern yourself with.........as I saw no numbers in your reply I am guessing that you are going by either experience or book knowledge.  But what about the ones who become debiltated by drug use and CANNOT function???  We MUST look at all sides and NOT just the side that supports our views
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Reaper

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2003, 06:00:49 pm »

Okay, specifically what are your concerns regarding them?

They will resort to crime?

We will certainly have laws against force and fraud (whether drug addiction plays any role in this or not).

They are an eye sore?

Yup.  No crime in that though.

Who will help them rehabilitate?

Private organizations and individuals will help some.  Some will not be helped and will doubtless spend their life in the gutters, as many do already.

I really can't think of anything that removing the drug laws will cause that doesn't already exist.  Some argue legalization will make more drug users but the statistics show otherwise.
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Reaper
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ProteusLizz

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2003, 06:50:58 pm »

ok, specifics............
Not only an eyesore or homeless laying around whereever is dry BUT.........who pays for these people???  in todays society WELFARE does.  Not everyone will have family or friends to help them, and the community can only do so much.  So we are to live in this new free state with homeless addicts laying about???  That would infringe my liberty, no???  I dont want people laying about, I have that now.

As I mentioned in my first posting, I am concerned about the money issue.  WHO PAYS???  There are medical costs involved, food, housing, possible education, etc.  in reforming an addict.  AND not everyone will have a support group to lean on.  

I NEVER said I was AGAINST legalizing drugs, I'm just asking if the whole plan was thought out with pros and cons both listed.  Before we jump into an endeavor lets make sure it aint like jumping off a bridge and can kill us.
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Reaper

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2003, 07:19:37 pm »

Quite frankly, those that will not be cared for by family, friends or other private voluntary measures will not be cared for.

We will be elimination as much public property as possible and I know private property owners will not allow them to lay about on their private property.  You may encounter them in the streets or public property, sure.  That's no different than now.  So . . . why bother with the drug war and throwing all those functional people in cages?
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Reaper
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ProteusLizz

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #98 on: October 31, 2003, 03:30:55 am »

First off...........I never said I agreed with the drug war or the locking up of people..........it's all a waste of money.  I just thought that leading a life of Libedrty would be more than "each person for himself and to hell with the community"  In my ideal a community does NOT just let the nonproductive citizens clutter the street.....So basically what you are saying, tell me if I didn't understand your view correctly, in this "NEW" free state........no one is accountable to society, you do as you please and to hell with your neighbor if it infinges them, there are "left" and "right" wings in this group (not a solid core) and half the state will have to carry guns because of "FEAR" of the other half.   Well hell.......you just described TODAYS society minus rules, regulations and laws!!!!!  What makes it so different?  

From my understanding the people in this forum are suppossed to "ATTRACT" others with like-thinking....not have them RE-THINK the whole proposition.  What I want to know is...........HOW IS THE FREE STATE DIFFERENT FROM TODAYS SOCIETY REGARDING DRUGS AND RESPONSIBILITY BESIDES THE FACT THAT THEY ARE LEGAL AND NO ONE WILL GIVE A DAMN ABOUT IT?
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Kyle

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #99 on: October 31, 2003, 04:01:05 am »

One can destroy his life with many things.  Drugs, alcoholism, sloth...the free state gives a person the freedom to do whatever he wants, provided he isn't harming others (encroaching on their liberty, more specifically).  Requiring people to pay for the mistakes of others does them harm.  In the free state, the government will not pay to fix alcoholics, busted drug addicts, or any other sort of person.

YOU, as a private citizen, are free to help rehabilitate anyone you like.  If YOU believe in rehabilitating drug addicts, YOU can donate to non-profit organizations that have this goal.  You and anyone else can donate as much to this cause as you feel it deserves, and you can even volunteer your time to help this goal along, and it is a good goal which I'm sure can help many people...But when you forcibly take money from my pocket to fix someone who is where they are because of the life they lived, you do ME an injustice.  When you take from a man who is successful because of the life he built and use it to subsidize a man who is a failure because of the life he threw away, you are taking away my right to my blood, sweat and tears.  I worked 80 hours a week busting my ass to get where I am, and you want to give it to or use it to fix someone who didn't work like I worked.  I earned it and I will decide where to spend it.  Grant me my right of giving to who I please and I will grant you the same.
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Morpheus

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #100 on: October 31, 2003, 06:08:11 am »

Quote
OK....the functional druggies are NOT the ones you need to concern yourself with.........as I saw no numbers in your reply I am guessing that you are going by either experience or book knowledge.  But what about the ones who become debiltated by drug use and CANNOT function???  We MUST look at all sides and NOT just the side that supports our views


Welfare would not even EXIST within the Free State. Nor will things such as Public Education, or Public Housing. All gone. Privatized.

As for the drug users who become so dehabilitated as to be unable to take care of themselves any longer, as said by others here, private charity shall attend to them if this is the will of generous souls. Otherwise.. they'll die.
I, quite frankly, couldn't care less.

Quote
no one is accountable to society, you do as you please and to hell with your neighbor if it infinges them,

Force, Fraud, and Theft WOULD be illegal within the Free State. Put down the crack, woman. Relax.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 06:09:50 am by Morpheus »
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ProteusLizz

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #101 on: October 31, 2003, 12:35:24 pm »

ok ONE) I do NOT support Welfare or Tax funded programs
    TWO) I am a REALIST

I agree with people doing what they want and all BUT  when i say accountable to society I am NOT speaking of LAWS...I am speaking of our responsibility to each other.  To live with others we all are held accountable to each other.  And I am NOT speaking of LAWS or TAXES or forcing one to give up their hard earned money to another.  MORALS!!!  Or, are those gone in the free state to.  Being a realist I look at EVERYTHING on all sides, as I said before, NOT just the side that makes my point valid.

And MORPHEUS.....no crack here and I am relaxed.  I just get tired of people thinking they can create a perfect world for themselves ONLY.  I thought that was for Seperatists.  We are trying to create a COMMUNITY where there are less laws not NO LAWS, where we don't have to worry if our tax dollars go to an organization we don't approve of orwhere our free-will and choice is not infringed upon. BUT still.......it is a COMMUNITY not a bunch of seperatists being neighbors.  We all have to face reality, there are laws, there will be taxes AND we do have a responsibility to each other.  In the 1700's they shunned those that were not productive in their society....perhaps this could be an option?

I wonder how this will ever come to be when people can't even take the time to hear each other out in this forum.  Instead of just tuning someone out because you don't agree with them, why not try either educating or listenning, whichever fits best. Peace :)
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SteveA

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #102 on: October 31, 2003, 02:12:54 pm »

Quote
To live with others we all are held accountable to each other.  And I am NOT speaking of LAWS or TAXES or forcing one to give up their hard earned money to another.  MORALS!!!

I think we all realize that there will always be people who, at least for a period of time, don't fit into society.  We currently have prisons, mental hospitals, rehabilitation clinics and ways of isolating them from the general population forcefully.  There will be no difference in a free state.  The only difference is what rational (morality) is used to determine when someones actions become detrimental to others.

We all basically agree that what one person does privately, if it doesn't harm anyone else, doesn't justify use of force (legal action) against them.  There will be grey areas, but in general being offended or considering oneself exposed to witnessing what we might consider dangerous actions does not imply legal action is necessary.  If someone jumps off a cliff, noone is required to follow.  If someone doesn't listen to warnings and stands dangerously close to the edge of a cliff, is that justification to call the police to arrest him?  I think the consensus here is no.  Children IMO are different.  They are expected to be taught by their parents to not jump off high places, and an adult that tells a child to jump off a cliff could be held accountable for that.  Children don't normally do that, and it's a matter of understanding the consequences.

I think we are all basically accountable for providing adequate warning of what consequences may results, when we encourage someone else to perform an action.

It is difficult to give a child adequate warning.  So even if you warned the child of the dangers of jumping off a cliff, but them encouraged them to do it.  The mental abilities of the child are developed enough to weight the issue in what we may consider a sane fashion.  The same could possibly apply to an adult who is mentally retarded.

If we have special knowledge beyond the obvious consequences of an action, and encourage someone to perform the action, we can potentially be held accountable for not informing the person of the special circumstances.  This could be considered fraud.  Once again it comes down to promoting an action by someone while knowing they don't have the knowledge to make a fair decision.  For example, if I sell a car to someone, and I know it's a total lemon and will break in three days, whether or not they ask, not providing such crucial information could be considered fraud.

Regarding drugs specifically, I was thinking that even with legal drugs, irresponsible distribution could hold legal consequences.  Just as a doctor can be held accountable for prescribing the wrong medication, or a food manufacturer can be held responsible for food poisoning, so can a drug manufacturer or salesman be held accountable.  We currently have information contained with prescription drugs that describe adverse reactions etc.  Even if the warnings aren't printed on a label, those knowledgeable of dangerous side effects or health risks are liable for falsely representing their product.  If a store sold cocaine lollipops in the candy section with M&Ms (the regular chocolate type, not Marajuana Munchies), legal action could be taken.

I personally would image legalizing drugs wouldn't be too different from what we have today.  Alcohol is behind the shelf, and purchasable by adults so children don't grab an Old English, and I don't think with legalized drugs, you'd have parsley and marajuana next to each other in the fresh vegetables section.  It likely would remain similar to how it is.  Just because someone is allowed to use pain killers, doesn't mean they can head down to the school yard to supply their clientel.

Anyway, that's my views on it.  Your mileage may vary.

Yes, we will have people that don't fit into society, as we do now.  And forceful incarceration can't be ruled out for someone who repeated demonstrates a lack of recognizing their actions are harming others.  We should try to warn them and give them options when possible, but in the end they are accountable for their own decisions.
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Kyle

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #103 on: October 31, 2003, 04:32:18 pm »

ok ONE) I do NOT support Welfare or Tax funded programs
    TWO) I am a REALIST

I agree with people doing what they want and all BUT  when i say accountable to society I am NOT speaking of LAWS...I am speaking of our responsibility to each other.  To live with others we all are held accountable to each other.  And I am NOT speaking of LAWS or TAXES or forcing one to give up their hard earned money to another.  MORALS!!!  Or, are those gone in the free state to.  Being a realist I look at EVERYTHING on all sides, as I said before, NOT just the side that makes my point valid.

And MORPHEUS.....no crack here and I am relaxed.  I just get tired of people thinking they can create a perfect world for themselves ONLY.  I thought that was for Seperatists.  We are trying to create a COMMUNITY where there are less laws not NO LAWS, where we don't have to worry if our tax dollars go to an organization we don't approve of orwhere our free-will and choice is not infringed upon. BUT still.......it is a COMMUNITY not a bunch of seperatists being neighbors.  We all have to face reality, there are laws, there will be taxes AND we do have a responsibility to each other.  In the 1700's they shunned those that were not productive in their society....perhaps this could be an option?

I wonder how this will ever come to be when people can't even take the time to hear each other out in this forum.  Instead of just tuning someone out because you don't agree with them, why not try either educating or listenning, whichever fits best. Peace :)
If you believe what you said here and you don't think tax money should be taken from some to restore others, then I think we're all in agreement.  Most people do have compassion and many will support causes to help those who have fallen.  I will gladly support causes for the fallen, provided I have a strong belief that the person can be restored to being a productive individual.  The free state doesn't prohibit people from caring about others, and people will care.  As long as you don't advocate forcing anyone to fund any program, we're all in agreement.
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radracer

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #104 on: November 01, 2003, 02:21:09 am »

RhythmStar said: Also, I see no reason not to tack extra penalties on when crimes are committed while under the influence.

That's typical of government punitive behavior but not libertarian practice. We believe in punishing ONLY for a crime committed not for the reason it may have happened, e.g. we don't believe in hate crimes. If someone attacks you or runs into you his motive is unimportant only that he did it. Different people are not special people, they deserve no special protections. By the same token your assessment of the risk generated by drinking is for YOUR consideration when YOU drink. This type of government is about SELF-government. I personally have driven home stinking drunk thousands of times despite the propaganda of big government that says I shouldn't have been able to.

I agree with atr when he says:  
We should outlaw behaviors for being offensive?

Quite right, we should not of course. Smoking cigarrettes is considered by some offensive; we can't get into drawing lines on freedom based on offending people. That will lead us to banning smoking eventually as they have done in Dallas (and all over) and we will end up only a few degrees more free than we are currently.

The Plano Texan said, Are you insinuating that I could take my six-year-old to the grocery store and witness a "fat orgy" on the corner?

Welcome Plano Texan. I grew up in Plano and my folks still live there. Most of us will require unlearning a lot of socially conservative fears in order to see what will happen in reality when REAL freedom is available. Growing up in socially conservative Plano I know where you are coming from, the land of conservatism.
First off the STORE you mention in your statement will obviously be owned by someone as will any sidewalk frontage, yard etc.
 What store owner would permit an orgy in his store? None.
Secondly, what man can "perform" when a crowd of people laugh and joke out loud about his gut, (or other deficiencies) and wouldn't be embarrassed into running and hiding? i.e. such a scene is impractical and would not happen anyway.

I totally agree with Reaper when he says: The VAST majority of drug users are very functional people.  They work, pay taxes, support themselves and their families and you probably know more than a few and just aren't even aware of their "hobby". I hung out in Dallas who did every drug imaginable for decades and most went to work every day.


Unlike ProteusLizz who says, "even if u legalize drugs on a state, county or city level the price will not go down."
Wrong, I believe they will. The FBI's stats show that most inner city crime and murders occur because of theft due to the high prices of ILLEGAL drugs. You can make damn near any drug within a given community, it need not be transported TO our Free state, it can be created there or grown there. Trust me on this subject I know what I am talking about. That means the prices should be a fraction of that which causes stress on a person's budget.

 The other problem faced by drug users is, of course the random drug tests given them by most employers in the land where the drug war is healthy.
Because of this they have problems holding a job and therefore having money to purchase their drug of choice. That is one time when they are forced to steal. There would be few (if any) employers in the Free State administering these. Bill Gates tried them and lost 85% of his "creative staff" and now in the IT industry there is almost NO drug testing. I worked in it, I know. Many in that industry do drugs. People who do drugs don't show up wasted as the
old drug war rhetoric would have you believe. You can't stay wasted forever and you wouldn't want to.

Morpheus: As for the drug users who become so dehabilitated as to be unable to take care of themselves any longer, as said by others here, private charity shall attend to them if this is the will of generous souls. Otherwise.. they'll die.
I, quite frankly, couldn't care less.

To this statement
ProteusLizz said why not try either educating. Morpheus was educating you to our stand on people who expect to be taken care of officially. Realistically some people will care for them; who? Doesn't matter, that's not our concern here. If no one does then they'd better call a friend or their parents to put them in rehab because we won't take care of them and in reality that's what would happen. There, now you're educated.  Sorry if I sound harsh but your tone is one of experience where you have none and also not indicative of having any experience in libertarian or otherwise self-governing environments. The job of this forum is to discuss topics not take on your entire libertarian education. Try reading any of the works of Harry Browne, David Bergland or Dr. Mary Ruwart. Then come back to discuss with us. Don't mean to alienate you but educating you will slow down the debate topics too much.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2003, 02:22:03 am by radracer »
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