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Author Topic: Drugs in the FSP  (Read 45764 times)

Reaper

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #165 on: March 11, 2004, 10:35:15 am »

All this other talk is silly adolescent BS. So many seem to forget that their freedom ends where my nose begins. But they will be reminded when they insist on sticking their personal business in my face and especially in my kid's face. And when they get reminded, they will never forget the lesson.

Please explain to me specifically how a person being naked on public property in anyway violates your person, property or liberty, other than "I just don't like it".
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Reaper
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SteveA

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #166 on: March 11, 2004, 11:45:20 am »

Though I don't preach any benefits to using drugs, our current legal definition of what a dangerous drug is, is far from beneficial.  Look at Rush Limbaugh, hooked on LEGAL drugs (though using them illegally).  My guess is that legal drugs cause more harm to people than illegal ones but some people need these medications, so what do you do?  Outlaw all drugs that could possibly be harmful and get rid of medicinal science altogether (people would just go elsewhere for their medication anyway and we'd have to hire tons of police officers to chase them down - not very productive all around).

The underlying conflict in using government to use force in doing virtually anything is that others can claim the same right.  The only non-conflicting use of government is to stop people from making forceful claims over overs (and in reality we wouldn't need any government at all if people respected each others right to live their life as they desired in their "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" ... sounds familiar huh?  Notice it says "pursuit".  We can't guarantee anyone will be successful in this pursuit).  We were founded in a very libertarian attitude of small government and independent states and have gone very far off course.

Some people may decide to use drugs that we would consider dangerous and have negative (or positive) experiences.  We have the freedom of association and speech in America.  We can choose not to associate with people who we feel are harmful to us and the right to tell them so but not the right to pick up a gun and threaten them if they are merely exercising the same rights we expect for ourselves.  Allowing people differing rights, depending on our whim, is where the conflict starts.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2004, 11:52:33 am by SteveA »
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penguinsscareme

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #167 on: March 11, 2004, 03:09:34 pm »

ATR, I stand by what I said.
I intend to honor my statement of intent first of all by working to recruit another 14,000 members to the project.  Then I intend to work to decentralize government power to the point where the township actually has some legitimacy again.  But I do not intend to further either of those goals by stamping my feet and pounding my fist and insisting that we legalize public drug use and sex.
Theoretical discussions are nothing but hot air.  Instead of making yourself useless by hurling out unattainable absolutes, why don't you tell me what I can do, or what you're going to do, to get the other 14,000 porcupines into the project.
I think it's Doug Hillman whose signature says we don't need philosophers, we need activists.  That's what I'm trying to point out.  I am not looking at this from a philosophical standpoint, I'm looking at it from an activism standpoint.
Your principles are admirable.  But this isn't about your principles.  I have principles of my own that I'm sure you wouldn't agree with.  You can have your principles, okay?  But let me have mine, as well.  Someday -- I think pretty soon -- we're going to have 20,000 members, and they're all going to have their own principles.  Do we want 20,000 people who all want to work toward more individual freedom and less government, or do we want 20,000 people who all agree on everything?  Again, one of these things is attainable, and the other is not.
I find it ironic that you tell me to get a grip on myself.  I think I have a pretty firm grasp of the situation, thanks.  I think it is you who are out of touch.  Public orgies and drug use are so far down the list of things we need to worry about that they are not worth serious discussion, let alone a war of ideals.
If you are going to draw a line in the sand over this stupidity, then you are going to find it impossible to ever work with people in meaningful way.  Your position is radical and extreme, and I think radical extremism -- or the perception of it -- is exactly why the libertarian cause has never gained wide acceptance.
I've said it and said it and said it again.  You just can't win this.
You should realize that there are those within the project -- people in positions of leadership, no less! -- who are willing to work with New Hampshire Republicans(!) who agree with us on many of our most important issues.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=45;action=display;threadid=5164
They don't agree with us on everything, but WE'RE NOT ASKING THEM TO.  We're taking what we can get and moving forward.
You can wallow in your philosophic ideals that are never going to actually materialize, or you can accept thatwe agree more than we disagree, and we can move forward together.
If all you want to do is divide, that's pretty easy.  It takes a little something more to unite.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2004, 03:10:46 pm by penguinsscareme »
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wes237

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #168 on: March 12, 2004, 10:04:27 pm »

Reaper...I think a kid should be allowed to be a kid as long as they can. I don't think their kid innocence should be spoiled by a nude body in public. (Just as I don't like the government robbing them of their innocence by teaching them sex education in the second grade of public schools) I have nothing against nudity...don't care what people do. But they don't have the right to shove their way in other people's face. Just as I don't want to have to try to explain to a ten year old why the guy at the park where we throw the football is sticking a needle in their arm, or some other guy has his pants unzipped with his his boyfriend on their knees in front of him. Just because it is legal does not mean you have the right to display it to another.

Reaper...after all this time reading your posts (past year and a half), I am surprised you would even ask the question. You always struck me as a 'common decency/common sense' kind of guy.

I am becoming very unhappy with lack of maturity this forum has come too since the vote was taken last fall.
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rdeacon

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #169 on: March 13, 2004, 03:03:03 pm »

What bothers me is that so many people are willing to shoot this movement in the foot by insisting on something as stupid and trivial as being able to walk naked in public.

Talk all you want about life, liberty, and property, but you are not being unreasonably oppressed by your inability to walk naked down main street (especially in New Hampshire in March).

Insisting on packaging that in with reasonable requests such as changing our drug policy, ending our victim disarmament crusade, and cutting taxes undermines our movement and kicks otherwise willing supporters out of our already tiny tent.  We can't afford to alienate.

Please explain to me specifically how a person being naked on public property in anyway violates your person, property or liberty, other than "I just don't like it".
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wes237

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #170 on: March 13, 2004, 03:10:33 pm »

Pushing your personal lifestyle in the face of others, publically, make you nothing more than a common statist. Isn't that why we want the Free State....to get away from others forcing their issues onto other individules?
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thrivetacobell

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #171 on: March 13, 2004, 03:23:50 pm »

Yep.

If everyone were mature enough to show a little self respect and individual responsibility then everyone could get along just fine.

Joining the FSP, for me, is a matter of gaining the opportunity to achieve a little individual responsibility. I hope a lot.

 If I wanted to escape from such it would be far more lucrative for me to stay where I am.
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atr

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #172 on: March 13, 2004, 03:33:43 pm »

Insisting on packaging that in with reasonable requests such as changing our drug policy, ending our victim disarmament crusade, and cutting taxes undermines our movement and kicks otherwise willing supporters out of our already tiny tent.  We can't afford to alienate.

I believe our tent is made smaller when we tell people what aspects of liberty are not acceptable for FSP members to care about and/or pursue. The beauty of the FSP, which is really the beauty of libertarianism, is that it allows different people with different values and priorities to find common ground in a general pursuit of increased liberty. Some of us care most about gun rights, some of us care most about taxes, some of us care most about drugs--I'm sure there are dozens of different priorities represented in the FSP. Belittling or condemning the aspects of liberty valued by other members is the alienation we cannot afford. Instead we should accept that other members may care more or less about certain aspects of liberty than we do, and we should be thankful that we are allies in pursuit of maximizing liberty in general.
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atr

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #173 on: March 13, 2004, 03:40:06 pm »

Pushing your personal lifestyle in the face of others, publically, make you nothing more than a common statist. Isn't that why we want the Free State....to get away from others forcing their issues onto other individules?

Thank you for asking this question, which I believe is a really important one to discuss. However, I believe it would best be discussed in the General Libertarian Discussion section of the message board, so I hope that you will post it there, or that a moderator will move this post and yours into that section.
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wes237

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #174 on: March 13, 2004, 03:44:43 pm »

When I was a teenager in the 60's...there was an area of the local lake called "hippy hollow" . (I imagine every community had such an area) If you went there you knew to expect peaceful people floating / sitting about nude and smoking pot/hash/etc. But those same folks who frequented the area (me included) , when making a beer / rolling paper run, did not go to the store without clothes or  with a joint in our mouth. It was called common decency and common respect. It did not require a law...and it did not require  discussion.

ATR...I'm responding to Reaper. If you want it moved, them move it.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2004, 03:49:47 pm by wes237 »
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Reaper

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #175 on: March 13, 2004, 05:51:55 pm »

Reaper...I think a kid should be allowed to be a kid as long as they can. I don't think their kid innocence should be spoiled by a nude body in public.

So, what is it about the human body that is so evil the mere sight of it unclothed makes them suddenly guilty?

(Just as I don't like the government robbing them of their innocence by teaching them sex education in the second grade of public schools)

No argument from me that public schools need to go.  I'm still looking for a concrete answer as to how the mere sight of a human body or knowledge about it makes one guilty?  And of what?

I have nothing against nudity...don't care what people do.

Nor do I.  I don't practice it much myself but I certainly don't think it should be a crime.

But they don't have the right to shove their way in other people's face.

Again, I'd ask specifically how the mere presence of a naked human body violates your right to life, liberty or property?  If someone wears a huge cross costume, or star of david or crescent moon are they "shoving it in your face" and should they be arrested?

Just as I don't want to have to try to explain to a ten year old why the guy at the park where we throw the football is sticking a needle in their arm, or some other guy has his pants unzipped with his his boyfriend on their knees in front of him. Just because it is legal does not mean you have the right to display it to another.

So then because you wish to maintain your child in a state of ignorance it justifies the initiation of force and use of police and guns against other persons?  Shouldn't that be your responsibility as a parent and not somehow bestow upon you the right to draft at gun point all free persons to keep you child ignorant of such things?

Reaper...after all this time reading your posts (past year and a half), I am surprised you would even ask the question. You always struck me as a 'common decency/common sense' kind of guy.

As I've said many times just because I don't believe something should be a crime does not mean I participate in such or approve of it.  I just don't think my status as a parent gives me "extra rights" or "privilidges" to initiate force against others harming no person or just themselves.

I get that you personally think such things would be somehow harmful to your child, but I've yet to see anything beyond "I find it offensive" or "I don't like it" or "It's against my personal morality".  None of those things are IMO sufficient cause for pointing guns at people and/or imprisoning them.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2004, 05:54:25 pm by Reaper »
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Reaper
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Reaper

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #176 on: March 13, 2004, 05:55:55 pm »

What bothers me is that so many people are willing to shoot this movement in the foot by insisting on something as stupid and trivial as being able to walk naked in public.

Talk all you want about life, liberty, and property, but you are not being unreasonably oppressed by your inability to walk naked down main street (especially in New Hampshire in March).

Insisting on packaging that in with reasonable requests such as changing our drug policy, ending our victim disarmament crusade, and cutting taxes undermines our movement and kicks otherwise willing supporters out of our already tiny tent.  We can't afford to alienate.

Please explain to me specifically how a person being naked on public property in anyway violates your person, property or liberty, other than "I just don't like it".

I do note however that you completely failed to answer the question.  Your response is merely ad hominem and does nothing for the discussion.
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Reaper
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"If we turn from battle because there is little hope of victory, where then would valor be?  Let it ever be the goal that stirs us, not the odds."

Reaper

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #177 on: March 13, 2004, 05:57:51 pm »

Pushing your personal lifestyle in the face of others, publically, make you nothing more than a common statist. Isn't that why we want the Free State....to get away from others forcing their issues onto other individules?

So your idea of "freedom" is that you are free to force others at gunpoint to act as you feel is correct according to your own "personal morality"?  Perhaps you should reevaluate who is being statist.
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Reaper
Proud member of the FSP's lunatic fringe!

"If we turn from battle because there is little hope of victory, where then would valor be?  Let it ever be the goal that stirs us, not the odds."

atr

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #178 on: March 13, 2004, 05:59:02 pm »

ATR...I'm responding to Reaper. If you want it moved, them move it.
I've restarted the discussion here:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=6167
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Reaper

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Re:Drugs in the FSP
« Reply #179 on: March 13, 2004, 05:59:08 pm »

Yep.

If everyone were mature enough to show a little self respect and individual responsibility then everyone could get along just fine.

TRANSLATION:  "If everyone acted as I think is respectful and appropriate we could all get along just fine."
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Reaper
Proud member of the FSP's lunatic fringe!

"If we turn from battle because there is little hope of victory, where then would valor be?  Let it ever be the goal that stirs us, not the odds."
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